Supreme Court upholds use of race in university affirmative action case

originally posted by: butcherguy
a reply to: atomish


I think the largest percentage would be Asian.

The reason is not because of DNA, but cultural differences.

Are there enough Asians applying to colleges here for them to be the majority of the student base at any of the large ones?

I do not know these statistics.

a reply to: Metallicus

Because Texas decided their was not enough diversity in their education system and designed rules to level the playing field. Instead of specifically focusing on race it used a broad 10% rule. The students who fall in the top 10% get a full ride to any Texas state university.

To full understand you would need to read the entire decision as its lengthy and explains their ruling.

originally posted by: Tempter

originally posted by: atomish

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: avgguy
a reply to: Edumakated

But when you priority something as stupid as somebody's skin color over grades or an application , even if it gives them a leg up from whatever situation they come from, you're still disenfranchising and being prejudice to another person. You can't just use the excuse that the persons spot they take will just get in somewhere else when all the schools are doing it.

It is not over everything else. Trust me, I didn't get into every school I applied. Nor did I get every job I applied for either. The diversity they look for can be any number of things, not just race. The race issue is just a convenient excuse for some to rationalize why they didn't get in.

Like I said, I am also going to post some thoughts against affirmative action, but I see both sides of the issue at a level that most do not.

Always nice to have input to the conversation from someone with direct experience with the topic at hand.

Very illuminating posts, thanks for sharing your experiences.

In general, I agree with what you are saying about it being an overblown issue. I don't necesarilly agree with the concept but there certainly is a subset of the population who act like it affects them way more than it does.

This isn't overblown at all. The government can discriminate based on race. This is against the USCon.

All laws are now illegitimate. Make sure you vote in the general you morons.

Don't get me wrong, I get what you are saying. I am not saying it overblown in principle, I disagree with the principle of Affirmative Action and feel it should not be employed at all, for exactly the reason you state.

I was merely speaking to the prevalence of it. There aren't insanely massive amounts of minorities receiving this treatment, this is clear looking at most any University in the country.

But no, I agree with you. Just because I feel the prevalence is being overblown doesn't mean I think it is right to begin with.

My main motivation for my post was to give props to Edumakated for giving valuable insight through well-reasoned posts having direct experience with such. And this from a poster known to hold views that may seem contrary to his views on this particular matter. Some posters aren't so brave as to not toe their "party line" in all matters.

originally posted by: imod02
I was talking to some people I know who work in universtys in England, they told me that muslims often get a free pass and more or less a free degree. Its common with med training, they are aloud to train and qualifie even when they are below standard. The reasion why this is happing is that the muslims say that god has commanded them to be doctors ect and if they are not let be what god want them to be than its religious discrimation. In the med field they are aloud to brake rules other people are not. So I think GB is in a worse posision than the US at the moment.
www.dailymail.co.uk... ions.html

It's the same in the U.S. Minorities get free handouts on every part of the process. It's easier for them to get into college, it's much easier for them to get into medical school, and it's also easier for them get residencies and complete their residencies. They also get race-based scholarships to fund their college and medical school too.

a reply to: Metallicus

Well, ya know..... we have a "victim" program.....and can't rock that boat.

Particularly when the government knows that it can manipulate and use the "victim" population.

And you know, white people....well, are BORN guilty. The privilege that white people have from BIRTH. It's so horrible that we even have blinders on so that white people cannot begin to see just how privileged that they are and how utterly and IRREVOCABLY downtrodden black people are.

Didn't you know that slavery *actually* permanently altered the genetic structure of black people? That they are STILL impacted by slavery today?

All the fault of white people. Hell, wasn't it the UN that did a study and suggested that the US Gov't begin a reparations program to repay the heinous crime that they perpetrated????

When a person takes on the mantle of "victim" regardless of "race", gender, sexual orientation, etc...... that person becomes a useful tool for the state.

originally posted by: Edumakated
I tend to support affirmative action to some degree. I'm black and have benefited from it immensely. Part of me is against it, but also I am for it as I've seen its benefits. It is a very nuanced issue and I think people on both sides of the debate have trouble grasping the issues.

As some of you know from my posting history, I tend to be pretty far right in most of my views. However, this is one where I tend to break ranks.

I'm going to try to post more, but a bit busy at work. To summarize though, affirmative action is really only an issue at the very best public and private universities. The reason many are against it is because they erroneously believe someone may have taken their spot at some school. Admission to certain schools almost guarantees an upper middle class life or opens doors to professions and other schools. This is why people clamor so much about getting into the Ivy League or peer schools.

When someone isn't accepted at said school, they start looking to blame someone because they feel like their spot at the table has been taken. This is what these challenges are about.

Opponents of affirmative action act as if the classrooms are full of black students. The reality is that even with affirmative action, we are still a very small percentage at most of these schools. There were 15 blacks in my class of 650 students in grad school. Half of them weren't even US citizens, but from Africa. To put this in perspective, my school gets about 10,000 applicants per year for 650 spots. They could accept every student with a perfect GPA and test scores and still have to turn away thousands of applicants. No matter what the schools do, somebody is going to get turned away.

The reality is that the schools are looking for more than just perfect test scores and GPAs. While there is a high correlation, they don't necessarily predict performance or provide the best learning environment. The schools are trying to create a class that they believe provides the best educational environment FOR ALL STUDENTS.

I served on the admissions committee at my graduate school and we would often times pick students who came from the midwest because they were underrepresented. We'd often pick people with different backgrounds. We'd pick people with unique stories.

The reality is that if someone is qualified to attend a top school, they may not get into every school, but they will get into at least one of the schools in the same tier. For example, a student may not get into Harvard, but they may get into Princeton. They may not get into Stanford, but they may get into Yale. No one who is qualified is going to get dinged by all the schools and wind up at University of Phoenix.

Depending on what they're applying to, favored minorities (not Asians) definitely get a leg up because of their race.



I've seen colleges where being a black applicant effectively gives you 400+ free points to your SAT scores.

Let's reverse the topic though. Consider a state like Maine. 1% of Maine is black. How would you feel if Maine's colleges decided to target the diversity of their local community and manipulated acceptances to target black admissions at 1% of the college? Why is this not OK but targeting national demographics is OK?

I'm part Asian. If Asians were a favored minority group, could I get free stuff too or would I be classified in the unfavored white male group? I look white, after all. But my best friend is the same mix and looks 100% Asian.. Could our kids also get free stuff? What about their kids?

At what point will our kids no longer be a favored minority anymore and just treated as #ing white males?

IF having kids with white people disqualifies you from free #, what's the difference between you and someone rallying against miscegenation? You're advocating for punishing interracial marriage by cutting off benefits like scholarships.

You want to punish peoples' children because of the race of the partner they choose to marry. Imagine how racist I'd be if I came out as a white male and advocated that policy. But I don't -- you advocate that.

If I marry an Asian, you're OK with my kids continuing to get free # and a leg up on college admissions. But if I marry a white person, you want to punish my children.

Also, what's the cut-off for being black and why?

a reply to: atomish

Policies like this extend beyond academia. In the construction industry, government projects often require general contractor's to meet certain MBE (minority owned business enterprise) and WBE (women owned business enterprise) goals. If you're a small subcontractor and happen to be a white male, good luck getting on government projects.

nm

originally posted by: atomish

originally posted by: butcherguy
a reply to: atomish


I think the largest percentage would be Asian.

The reason is not because of DNA, but cultural differences.

Are there enough Asians applying to colleges here for them to be the majority of the student base at any of the large ones?

I do not know these statistics.

Good point.
I do not have any figures on that.

I should have said that I meant in China!

originally posted by: avgguy
a reply to: Edumakated

African American students get in twice as often to medical school as white students with the same exact academic record.


www.aei.org...

the problem is that it only talks about acceptance rates, not how many actually attend medical school. Again, black doctors are about as common as white NBA players so to act like there are all these poor white kids suffering because some medical school has 5 blacks in a class of 100 is disingenuous. The other issue again is that MCATs and GPA again do not necessarily equate to being a good doctor. Nor does the GRE or GMAT or LSAT. The schools know this is true.

Let me give you another personal example. My wife has a graduate degree as well. She graduated from the #1 grad school in her profession. I believe she was 3rd in her graduate school class based on GPA out of 200 students. Her GRE scores sucked. Well below average for the school, but she was Salutatorian in undergrad at a well regarded college. She is not a good standardized test taker. However, she is extremely disciplined when it comes to studying for classes, no one beats her. So in her case, the GRE was obviously not much of a predictor of her performance at the school.

What happens is that with many of these schools, there is a diminishing return of test score performance after you exceed a certain level. In addition, other factors come into play in determining who does well and who does not.

If school acceptance was just based on GPA /Test scores, then most of the schools would be 100% asian and indian. In fact, many asian groups are suing because schools are letting too many under qualified whites in over asians with better scores.

School admissions is much more holistic and complicated because there are way more qualified applicants than spots available.