Diminishing quality of the labor pool

It seems to be forgotten that there are more people than jobs, and that that gap is only going to increase. If we say that: "To eat, you must work", even if the entirety of the population was a cross between Einstein, Tesla, Mozart, DaVinci, and Archimedes, you'd still have a certain number of them starving.

It's not the players at fault, it's the game.

a reply to: onequestion

You touch on the heart of the matter here...

Schools are indeed turning out swarms of educated people who lack experience.
And, schools do a pitiful job of teaching people problem solving skills.
Great at test-taking with multiple certifications, yes... lousy at adapting those skills to the real tasks at hand.

On the other hand, businesses list certifications as "required" in their job postings, yet when a newbie is hired/contracted in, the first realization they have is that, despite what is said in the interview, there are very few companies that even pretend to use any of the certified skills.

And God forbid a company send an existing employee who works hard and shows aptitude (and knows the business) out for training/certification... seems like it would be way cheaper in the long run, but what do I know?

a reply to: swanne

Why? Because that's the only place the system allows me to be. All my education is completely useless, because the system requires physical labour, not thinking heads.

It took me five years to complete a 2-year degree in computer programming. I went from making minimum wage washing dishes, to making $70k working from home in my pajamas (plus PTO, paid holidays, and sick leave).

My career is a "thinking" career. STEM is where the money is at.

a reply to: Eilasvaleleyn

It seems to be forgotten that there are more people than jobs, and that that gap is only going to increase. If we say that: "To eat, you must work", even if the entirety of the population was a cross between Einstein, Tesla, Mozart, DaVinci, and Archimedes, you'd still have a certain number of them starving.

Except, you don't have to sell your labor to eat.

a reply to: DBCowboy

To be honest entry level engineers can make 95k with good benefits packages and 35-40 hour weeks right out of school. If you want someone to be on call 24/7 etc expect to pay 120 + overtime.

In the city I live in studio apartments are up 1/3+ in rent in under 3 years. 90k is the new 60k salary wise... That's BEFORE you factor in one other tiny little fact, there's more demand for qualified engineering grads than there are grads.

Long story short, you're offering less than median starting wage for a way higher expected work load than other employers. Why would I accept 2/3 the money to be on call 24/7 when I am looking at up to 120k starting wage the day I graduate with my ME?

originally posted by: LordSatan
It took me five years to complete a 2-year degree in computer programming. I went from making minimum wage washing dishes, to making $70k working from home in my pajamas (plus PTO, paid holidays, and sick leave).

My career is a "thinking" career. STEM is where the money is at.

Grats on getting a job with a 2 year, especially in programming... a field notoriously hostile to 2 years. I don't memorize the backgrounds of everyone but (and correct me if I'm wrong) Swanne is a physicist so that's a STEM career, it's just not as lucrative as programming at most companies.

When I tried getting a job with my 2 year programming degree some years back, the only things I could find were for front end Javascript people which isn't where I want to go career wise. Oh well, just means more schooling to get where I want.

I find it interesting honestly that 6 month boot camps have better job placement rates than 2 year CS programs. It shows that there's a huge demand for programmers that boot camps are even successful (especially when half of them are scams) but it also shows the cultural bias against an Associates Degree since an AS should give you a better foundation than boot camps.

Just curious, what did your 2 year cover? Did it go into Data Structures, Algorithms, AI, building OS's, etc... or did it just teach a couple languages?

a reply to: Aazadan

Grats on getting a job with a 2 year, especially in programming... a field notoriously hostile to 2 years. I don't memorize the backgrounds of everyone but (and correct me if I'm wrong) Swanne is a physicist so that's a STEM career, it's just not as lucrative as programming at most companies.

I live in the columbus Ohio area, and demand for developers here is so high that they send recruiters out even to the community colleges and trade schools.

There are a ton of contract companies, though, and that's where the majority of demand for developers is being filled.

When I tried getting a job with my 2 year programming degree some years back, the only things I could find were for front end Javascript people which isn't where I want to go career wise. Oh well, just means more schooling to get where I want.

I feel your pain, I started out doing ruby test automation and wasn't entirely satisfied because that isn't where I wanted my career. But, I was able to use it as a place to get my foot in the door.

I find it interesting honestly that 6 month boot camps have better job placement rates than 2 year CS programs. It shows that there's a huge demand for programmers that boot camps are even successful (especially when half of them are scams) but it also shows the cultural bias against an Associates Degree since an AS should give you a better foundation than boot camps.

Yeah, the majority of Java/Agile bootcamps are a joke. When I first graduated, I joined one of those bootcamps through a company called Cooks Systems. We (the other students and myself), spent 7 weeks, Monday through Friday from nine to five, trying to cover as much Java material as possible--the whole thing was unpaid, so that was rough.

If Cook Systems is in your area, I would advise avoiding them like the plague. They're a terrible company. I would recommend Teksystems or Corporate Brokers, both excellent contract companies that I've worked with.

Just curious, what did your 2 year cover? Did it go into Data Structures, Algorithms, AI, building OS's, etc... or did it just teach a couple languages?

My degree program covered everything except AI and building OS's (two things I've noticed are required for most Bachelors programs).

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Kali74

Entry level engineering.

100K

hahahahahahahahahahahaha

my husband has over 16 years of engineering experience and he is being paid by an international company UNDER 100K in CHICAGO!!!!! (You should have seen his face when he found out BEGINNING engineers made more then he did....)

We are expected to give up more of our lives than the serfs of tyrants were expected to, with little to show for it, and you expect happy smiling faces and professionalism. # off tyrants, I will be most overjoyed when you are all unseated from your throwns and beheaded like you deserve.

Earn it my ass. Have reasonable expectations for people and treat them for what they're worth and they might give the same in return. I'm so sick of this broken corrupt system that thinks people exist to work til they die. Kids have no parents anymore, husbands no wives, wives no husbands, grandparents no kids, friends no friends, no has anything anymore cause all life is about these days is sacrificing every living moment to your employer, forget have loved ones or a life.

If not willing to sacrifice a life and family youre a lazy no good rotten low life. I'm so done wit Tyranny. I'd rather be dead than feed the greedy S.O.B's that think we're their personal live stock.

The workforce sucks because frankly the employers all nothing more than bloodsucking leeches, that want nothing more than to suck the life blood out of every single person while they get fat upon our very souls. People are simply done with it all. It's not the workforce that's the problem. The work simply isn't worth #, and so that's what you get for effort.

a reply to: Puppylove

Selling your labor isn't tyranny.

If I produce X, and you want X, we need some medium of exchange that acts as a guarantee. For instance, if I were to just give you X, I have no guarantee that other people would reciprocate. The use of a currency, where people accept said currency as a medium of exchange, alleviates such as an issue.

You do not sell your labor to survive. You sell your labor so that you can receive products/services that were made or offered by other humans.

You already have all of the tools that you need to survive, namely, your own labor. That is it, that is all you need. You don't have to exchange with people in a market for the things they offer. You can simply utilize your labor to produce the things you need for your survival.

Your labor may not be as sophisticated as someone else's in terms of the quality that you are able to produce, but no one has a right to "quality."

a reply to: LordSatan

We live in a land of laws governed by greedy tyrants, that work to crush the little guy and control our lives. It's not like I can just go live in the wild, that's illegal you know, in fact most things I could do to live free from their control has been made illegal. Your full of crap if you think it's "selling your labor" it's not, it's a few greedy assholes controlling our economy to treat us like dirt so they can sate their psychopathic egos.

It's been a long time since it was just a proper exchange of goods and services, don't pretend that's what we really have going on. It's dishonest and far from reality.

originally posted by: MALBOSIA
Building trades are sufferring heavily.

It is not cool anymore to work with your hands. Most young people dont care if they paid for collage and are only making 60k a year as long as they dont get dirty.

If you are wearing construction clothes you usually get treated like a second class citizen by everyone else so I dont blame normal people for not wanting to get into construction.

Our cultural standards created a degrading work force.

I love when people look at me in my work clothes thinking I have it bad when I love what I do and make an average of 75 an hour doing piece work. Drywall has been kind to me and our trade gets a really bad reputation for being drunks and stones but I'd say we're no different than any other trade.
I could never work in a cubicle stuck in one place.

originally posted by: LordSatan
I live in the columbus Ohio area, and demand for developers here is so high that they send recruiters out even to the community colleges and trade schools.

Columbus hires heavily out of my current university, I doubt I'll go that route when I finish, but one company there in particular hires something like 85% of our graduates. In fact, last semester they came in and hired the entire graduating senior class. No resumes, no interviews, simply gave a business card and said show us your degree and you're hired... getting through the program is enough proof for an interview. We have a ridiculously hard program so it's nice to see that type of payoff (8% graduation rate, average person takes 6 years to finish). I thought that was pretty cool, but the company is down a career path I don't want to go since they mostly focus on database programming while I'm looking to do stuff with simulations/AR/VR/games/Unity.

My degree program covered everything except AI and building OS's (two things I've noticed are required for most Bachelors programs).

Interesting, mine which to be fair was billed as more of a web programming degree than pure CS was HTML/CSS/PHP/Java/Python and maybe one or two others. Lots of soul sucking web apps, few interesting problems. My favorite things to do these days are algorithms, none of which a web background was any good at providing.

originally posted by: Puppylove
The workforce sucks because frankly the employers all nothing more than bloodsucking leeches, that want nothing more than to suck the life blood out of every single person while they get fat upon our very souls. People are simply done with it all. It's not the workforce that's the problem. The work simply isn't worth #, and so that's what you get for effort.

There are still some employers out there that have terms allowing people to have a reasonable work/life balance, as time has gone on though those jobs have become harder to get and tend to require more education.

originally posted by: Slickinfinity

originally posted by: MALBOSIA
Building trades are sufferring heavily.

It is not cool anymore to work with your hands. Most young people dont care if they paid for collage and are only making 60k a year as long as they dont get dirty.

If you are wearing construction clothes you usually get treated like a second class citizen by everyone else so I dont blame normal people for not wanting to get into construction.

Our cultural standards created a degrading work force.

I love when people look at me in my work clothes thinking I have it bad when I love what I do and make an average of 75 an hour doing piece work. Drywall has been kind to me and our trade gets a really bad reputation for being drunks and stones but I'd say we're no different than any other trade.
I could never work in a cubicle stuck in one place.

I will probably get in trouble for recruiting but I am a project manager with a large drywall and steel stud outfit in Vancouver if your into making the move PM me. We have a few million board feet on the books for this year.

I was a piecework drywaller for over 10 years. My BEST years, I should point out. I body has been dying a little every day since I gave it up. I miss being that strong and healthy and it is funny when people congradulate me because I made it to the position i am in when in reality all it did was turn me into dumb-ass ball of fat.

People that work with their hands and especially in construction have remarkabke problem solving skills. We make architects and engineers look like idiots daily.

a reply to: Puppylove

We live in a land of laws governed by greedy tyrants, that work to crush the little guy and control our lives. It's not like I can just go live in the wild, that's illegal you know, in fact most things I could do to live free from their control has been made illegal. Your full of crap if you think it's "selling your labor" it's not, it's a few greedy assholes controlling our economy to treat us like dirt so they can sate their psychopathic egos.

It's been a long time since it was just a proper exchange of goods and services, don't pretend that's what we really have going on. It's dishonest and far from reality.

I completely agree with you. I was just referring to the use of markets and currency, and how those things are practical tools.

The tyranny here is like the laws that you referenced where you are not allowed to homestead unclaimed land, and the government being used to make the economy beneficial for a select few only.

a reply to: Aazadan

There are still some employers out there that have terms allowing people to have a reasonable work/life balance, as time has gone on though those jobs have become harder to get and tend to require more education.

Unfortunately, those rare employers are becoming infected at the speed of light.

I hate how most of the industries follow like lemmings the actions of their competitor. They don't even wait to see if it is successful. The moment they get word their competitor has initiated something new, they are on the bandwagon, so they will never be in the place where a customer can say that company FU down the street, does something that your company FU2, doesn't do or have.

That includes sucking the soul out of their employees and then throwing them under the bus.

originally posted by: Kali74
Do you guys even realize that you're saying that the labor force is bad because minorities are in it? Maybe you don't realize what you're saying... I hope that's the case.

Anyway, the labor force is actually over qualified and probably you're running into people that stopped GAF out of frustration.

That's not what he said. However, let's pretend that it is. All you did was label it racist and put on a sad face. A sad face isn't an actual point. Neither is calling something a name.

Racist views are actually correct in lots of cases. For example, the average Dutchman is 6'2 and the average Chinese man is 5'6". It's correct to say that the Dutch are a physically superior race. (fyi -- I'm part Asian, I'm just not brainwashed) Calling that racist and putting on a sad face doesn't make it not true.

originally posted by: mymymy
a reply to: DBCowboy

But then again, earning a good job requires effort.

In my experience, earning a good job requires nothing more than who you know or who you're related to

Getting to know people is part of that effort (networking). I just moved to a new city and it was hard at first to find a job. Once I found one, I made friends with my co-workers that all have second jobs and I could get them to vouch for me at any of them. Just having a job and making friends opened up like a billion job opportunities out of nowhere.

double post