Take a break, please.

originally posted by: ReprobateRaccoon
a reply to: DBCowboy

This was a tragedy, but the way that our leaders are twisting it for political gain really is disgusting.

While I didn't know anyone who was there, I did tend to take this a bit personal, mainly because this struck so close to home. (My home here is within walking distance) Taking a step backwards and a couple of deep breaths can help all of us re-center and heal.

My heart is with you, I lived in central FL for about 6 years, my best friend was a 6'4", 250 lb gay black man, he was the best man at my wife and I's wedding. We all need to take a deep breath, and the false flag f's need to back off. We have had 49 of our own killed on our shores, whether they were LGBT or Straight, 49 American lives have been taken.

a reply to: DBCowboy

Nothing good ever comes from rushing to action. The typical result of kneejerk responses is partisan solutions, and then entrenching those poorly thought out ideas in order to not back down in a bunch of shouting matches.

I don't know about you, but I decided that for at least a few days I won't be looking at anything having to do with Orlando, probably longer than that. Nothing comes from getting involved in a bunch of emotionally charged drivel over god and guns.

a reply to: DBCowboy

Well, old man, you don't necessarily need guns, do you?

That OP was a pretty good opening salvo, with no weapons, other than words, needed. Now all people need to do is listen/read.

We have been through this how many times?? each with calls for a time out and breather before acting , the flowers laid, the candles goes and the tears are wiped away and everyone goes back to business as usual I am sorry to be the odd one out here , and I know you meant well but..I AM SICK & TIRED OF THIS S..! we are a nation with an extremely short attention span, if you don't keep that fire burning for change then, see you all at the next wake, for rest assured we will forget.

originally posted by: Spider879
We have been through this how many times?? each with calls for a time out and breather before acting , the flowers laid, the candles goes and the tears are wiped away and everyone goes back to business as usual I am sorry to be the odd one out here , and I know you meant well but..I AM SICK & TIRED OF THIS S..! we are a nation with an extremely short attention span, if you don't keep that fire burning for change then, see you all at the next wake, for rest assured we will forget.

We are all sick and tired of it, and I will agree our attention span is pretty short. The problem being, with the country being so politically divided, an idea comes from either side, and right away 50% of the population decides it is a bad idea based on nothing more than being from the other side.

a reply to: BubbaJoe

Yes, I get that in a sense, but we are so busy picking apart everything that happened that was bad and wearing national sackcloth and ashes over it that it creates the perception that NOTHING is good, justified or legitimate.

Certainly the SJW movement is using it to try to steadily erase our nation and past in favor of ... ? ... that they think they need to create. And it is creating national turmoil and chaos.

Perhaps what we need to get back to is a dose of good old nationalism with a side of healthy patriotism, not jingoism. Being proud to be American is NOT jingoism. Certainly you do not see the Japanese apologizing or self-flagellating over their conduct in WWII, and they carried out atrocities comparable to anything the Germans did. And the Japanese still have a strong and coherent culture. They are unapologetically Japanese.

a reply to: DBCowboy

I only read the OP (I only have a few minutes here this morning) so it's probably been said a hundred times, but what a lovely, lovely thought and suggestion. Careful, your wisdom is showing!

Maybe everyone will be over their knee jerk reaction by November.

We had a knee jerk reaction after 911 as in "by God somebody somewhere is going to pay for this"

And we know how that went..... Yeah. Let's not do that again...

Respectfully,
liw

a reply to: Spider879

Our country is somewhat unique. We have a level of freedom here that few other countries enjoy. And you'll find that in all the countries that favor freedoms, they have suffered attacks.

In closed countries with limited or no freedoms, terrorists won't have the opportunity to plan/complete attacks to the levels seen.

Knee-jerk solutions would have us with a society with limited freedoms to insure our safety. These things will always happen in a free society.

They have happened. They will happen again.

Because our society actually allows the freedom for bad people to do bad things.

Any actual lasting solution would have to include a revamping of our foreign policy.

But to change the intrinsic nature of our free society would forever change us and the way we live.

We have to ask ourselves what freedoms do we restrict in a free society.

We restrict freedoms that infringe upon the rights of others.

I have the freedom to log into ATS.

I don't have the freedom to log into child porn sited because those sites exploit children.

So maybe a practical first step would be to inhibit the websites that promote ISIS. because that would ultimately infringe upon the rights of others.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: BubbaJoe

Yes, I get that in a sense, but we are so busy picking apart everything that happened that was bad and wearing national sackcloth and ashes over it that it creates the perception that NOTHING is good, justified or legitimate.

Certainly the SJW movement is using it to try to steadily erase our nation and past in favor of ... ? ... that they think they need to create. And it is creating national turmoil and chaos.

Perhaps what we need to get back to is a dose of good old nationalism with a side of healthy patriotism, not jingoism. Being proud to be American is NOT jingoism. Certainly you do not see the Japanese apologizing or self-flagellating over their conduct in WWII, and they carried out atrocities comparable to anything the Germans did. And the Japanese still have a strong and coherent culture. They are unapologetically Japanese.

I am not real fond of the SJW movement, what is so hard to figure out that equal is equal, that is the only thing that we should strive for.

I understand what you are saying about the Japanese culture, but in the scheme of things, it is a small country not populated by waves of immigrants from all over the world. We are a very large country and our culture varies within our own country depending on where you are. Put someone from Los Angeles in a rural central Florida community, it is an interesting situation.

What culture do we embrace, or how would you define American culture? My own family while in the USA for a very long time is Half German and Half English-Scot-Irish. Patriotism and Nationalism are fine, however many that want to call for that, want to not include some of our own citizens for whatever reason.

I don't have the answers.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
We have to ask ourselves what freedoms do we restrict in a free society.

We restrict freedoms that infringe upon the rights of others.

I have the freedom to log into ATS.

I don't have the freedom to log into child porn sited because those sites exploit children.

So maybe a practical first step would be to inhibit the websites that promote ISIS. because that would ultimately infringe upon the rights of others.

I see where you are going with this, unfortunately quite a slippery slope, that I am not sure most Americans would tolerate.

a reply to: BubbaJoe

I'd be more than happy to be wrong and off base. Solutions are difficult, especially when we are, basically, at war.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: BubbaJoe

I'd be more than happy to be wrong and off base. Solutions are difficult, especially when we are, basically, at war.

I am not sure we want to open the door to censorship farther than it has been opened. Solutions are difficult, especially when everyone has different ideas about who or what we are at war with. Maybe we (the governments being affected) need to put some "Anonymous" hackers on their payroll, but again a very slippery slope. Utah declared adult websites to be a public health hazard.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
We have to ask ourselves what freedoms do we restrict in a free society.

We restrict freedoms that infringe upon the rights of others.

I have the freedom to log into ATS.

I don't have the freedom to log into child porn sited because those sites exploit children.

So maybe a practical first step would be to inhibit the websites that promote ISIS. because that would ultimately infringe upon the rights of others.

Here's the way I see the problem, after reading my reasoning ask yourself if I'm off base. We are at war, but it's not a physical battlefield with a front line. We're in an economic war. The terrorists are practicing a form of asymmetrical war that's designed to bankrupt us and remove our influence from the world, possibly even break our country.

They specialize in low budget, high impact attacks, against soft targets. Whether that's in Iraq and bombing a market, shooting up a nightclub in the US, or hijacking some airplanes as guided missiles. None of these attacks cost much money to carry out however they cost a fortune to prevent. Attacks like this show that they can hit us anywhere at any time. How do we prevent that? We can't lock down the entire country, there's not enough money to do so, and there's not a conventional battlefield to take this fight to either. What we are locked in is a war of ideology, we can target individuals and take them out (if they're in areas our troops can get to) but the collateral damage from that has only created more terrorists. Other than that we're basically forced to reduce their funding and recruitment but that's much easier said than done.

originally posted by: BubbaJoe
I am not real fond of the SJW movement, what is so hard to figure out that equal is equal, that is the only thing that we should strive for.

Equal isn't equal though, some want equality in opportunity, others want equality in result, others want both, and some want neither.

a reply to: Aazadan

Good synopsis.

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: DBCowboy
We have to ask ourselves what freedoms do we restrict in a free society.

We restrict freedoms that infringe upon the rights of others.

I have the freedom to log into ATS.

I don't have the freedom to log into child porn sited because those sites exploit children.

So maybe a practical first step would be to inhibit the websites that promote ISIS. because that would ultimately infringe upon the rights of others.

Here's the way I see the problem, after reading my reasoning ask yourself if I'm off base. We are at war, but it's not a physical battlefield with a front line. We're in an economic war. The terrorists are practicing a form of asymmetrical war that's designed to bankrupt us and remove our influence from the world, possibly even break our country.

They specialize in low budget, high impact attacks, against soft targets. Whether that's in Iraq and bombing a market, shooting up a nightclub in the US, or hijacking some airplanes as guided missiles. None of these attacks cost much money to carry out however they cost a fortune to prevent. Attacks like this show that they can hit us anywhere at any time. How do we prevent that? We can't lock down the entire country, there's not enough money to do so, and there's not a conventional battlefield to take this fight to either. What we are locked in is a war of ideology, we can target individuals and take them out (if they're in areas our troops can get to) but the collateral damage from that has only created more terrorists. Other than that we're basically forced to reduce their funding and recruitment but that's much easier said than done.

Excellent analysis.

originally posted by: BubbaJoe
I am not real fond of the SJW movement, what is so hard to figure out that equal is equal, that is the only thing that we should strive for.

Equal isn't equal though, some want equality in opportunity, others want equality in result, others want both, and some want neither.

Good point, I hadn't put that much thought into it. I was basically referring to the systemic lack of equal opportunity for all Americans.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: BubbaJoe

I'd be more than happy to be wrong and off base. Solutions are difficult, especially when we are, basically, at war.

And therein lies the problem, we are at war! The enemy is a fundamentalist religion spread all over the world and they hate us for manipulating their culture, their resources and their countries and they are striking back with the only weapon they have, terrorism. In essence a continuation or a resurgence of the Crusades. There are no solutions except mutual destruction. As the hatred, paranoia and control mechanisms are forced into play we have no alternative other than fascism, military dictatorships and totalitarianism with ultimately a theocracy.

There's also a negative side.

originally posted by: olaru12

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: BubbaJoe

I'd be more than happy to be wrong and off base. Solutions are difficult, especially when we are, basically, at war.

And therein lies the problem, we are at war! The enemy is a fundamentalist religion spread all over the world and they hate us for manipulating their culture, their resources and their countries and they are striking back with the only weapon they have, terrorism. In essence a continuation or a resurgence of the Crusades. There are no solutions except mutual destruction. As the hatred, paranoia and control mechanisms are forced into play we have no alternative other than fascism, military dictatorships and totalitarianism with ultimately a theocracy.

There's also a negative side.

The last line actually caused me to LOL.

Good analysis, unfortunately we have a group of fundamentalists within a different religion that want the same thing in our country.

There is a small part of me that thinks the only answer is to bring every American service man or woman back to US Soil, completely close our borders, and become complete isolationists. But the larger part of me knows that will not solve the problems that we are facing.

a reply to: BubbaJoe

Another way to look at this ideology is this: They are being offered the chance to fight for utopia. They're on a mission from god.

The Operative: I'm sorry. If your quarry goes to ground, leave no ground to go to. You should have taken my offer. Or did you think none of this was your fault?
Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: I don't murder children.
The Operative: I do. If I have to.
Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: Why? Do you even know why they sent you?
The Operative: It's not my place to ask. I believe in something greater than myself. A better world. A world without sin.
Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: So me and mine gotta lay down and die... so you can live in your better world?
The Operative: I'm not going to live there. There's no place for me there... any more than there is for you. Malcolm... I'm a monster. What I do is evil. I have no illusions about it, but it must be done.

Serenity

This exchange between Mal and the Operative from Serenity sort of typifies it. There is nothing they won't do, no evil that can't be excused for their ideology and the world they believe they will bring about through their actions. ISIS offers them that to look to. They may not, likely will not ever live in that world. In fact, they will all pretty much die, but ISIS also promises them Paradise if they do carry out these acts.

This what we have to find an ideology to combat. We have to find something they can believe in that will keep them from thinking that is a better belief.

And we aren't going to do it by discussing how this word and that word are racist and should be banned from even being uttered. Why this person and person and that person did or did not pay enough in taxes and if that does or does not make them evil greedy bastards. Whether or not America as we know it is an evil nation that is illegitimate or a good one.

a reply to: BubbaJoe

Not exactly, Christians don't believe you can carry wholesale out slaughter of innocents and think it's righteous and that you can celebrate it be rewarded by God. Any judgment of that sort is His and His alone, not yours, mine or anyone else's to carry out. All of us will face it in the end (and I am not talking apocalypse, just after we die of whatever takes us).

That is, or should be, the main difference between the two groups.