forgot something about islamic countrys , can anyone jog my memory?

to the mods : i dont think this is needed but i will put this here just incase, since i want to be safe : i am not making fun or trying to degrade anyone, i am just trying to find out something i forgot and cant find it online. also, not sure if this is the right place so move if not please.

Would anyone happen to know what those places are called in islamic countrys that are like brothels, but i dont believe the women have a say in weather they are there or not.

qerem ? something like that? im not trying to start a fight as to why they are there or if they are bad or not, i just forgot what they are called and want to find out again. google was no help.

a reply to: theboarman

Harem

a reply to: EmmanuelGoldstein

i believe that is indeed it, thank you.

a reply to: theboarman

Yes EmanuelGoldstein has it correct, harem they are not so much like brothels though as slave pit's, the woman have no say, no right's and are owned by there master, there children are not guaranteed to inherit anything either though that is at the discretion of there owner.

A rich sheik may allow a guest to visit his brothel or choose one of his slave's but it is very rare and often then that slave become's the property of the one he has given her to.

An evil practice found in Islam but also in other culture's and very ancient predating islam itself.

The chinese emperor's had many concubine's as they called these slave's also and one even had all his concubines executed for falling in love with the Eunuch's that guarded them.

Just for the record, which specific countries are you asking about? Also, you're implying that it's something that's "official" as opposed to something that's done in the dark. Because there are hidden brothels all over the world, even in the US. Many Western and "1st world" countries have them and they're "staffed" with human trafficking victims, runaways, and more. Cartels, gangs, organized crime groups, Yakuza, and even many common "pimps" do this on a daily basis.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

i get your point.

and i said ''islamic countrys'' , i would prefer not to have to list off every islamic country there is.

a reply to: theboarman

That's the point. All sex out of wedlock is forbidden in Islam. And since there are dozens of Islamic countries, it comes off as incredibly vague.

I'm not usually one to defend any religion, but Harems aren't "Islamic", just like underground brothels aren't Christian, and the underground Thai child sex market isn't Buddhist.


I seriously doubt, having come up with "qerem", that Google was no help.

a reply to: Atsbhct

doubt me all you want, it does not effect me anyway at all. i know what i searched for and thats good enough for me.

a reply to: EmmanuelGoldstein

LOL, It is a shame you edited your post, with your ''Im totally being sarcastic'' at the bottom it made it all the better.

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
a reply to: theboarman

That's the point. All sex out of wedlock is forbidden in Islam.


Does that also include rape?

originally posted by: mamabeth
Does that also include rape?

Obviously it does. Like I said, all sex out of wedlock is forbidden in Islam. Here are 5 different translations for Surah 24:2 of the Qur'an, which says it plainly (here). The words in parenthesis are added by their editors:

Muhsin Khan translation

2. The woman and the man guilty of illegal sexual intercourse, flog each of them with a hundred stripes. Let not pity withhold you in their case, in a punishment prescribed by Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of the believers witness their punishment. (This punishment is for unmarried persons guilty of the above crime but if married persons commit it, the punishment is to stone them to death, according to Allah's Law).

Pickthall translation

2. The adulterer and the adulteress, scourge ye each one of them (with) a hundred stripes. And let not pity for the twain withhold you from obedience to Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of believers witness their punishment.

Yusuf Ali translation

2. The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.

Shakir translation

2. (As for) the fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them, (giving) a hundred stripes, and let not pity for them detain you in the matter of obedience to Allah, if you believe in Allah and the last day, and let a party of believers witness their chastisement.

Dr. Ghali translation

2. The female fornicater and the male fornicator, (The Arabic Zaniyah and Zan refer to those who commit either fornication or adultery. By a comparison of this verse to other and to Hadiths., it is it is understood that this verse refers to fornicators, i.e., unmarried people committing illegal sexual intercourse) then lash each one of them a hundred lashes, and let not compassion for them (both) take (hold of) you in the religion of Allah, in case you believe in Allah and the Last Day; and let a section of the believers witness their (The torment of the two of them) torment.

Also, everything in the Qur'an adds on top of itself. As in, a condition in one Surah doesn't replace a previous mentioned condition; it adds on top of it. And since believers are supposed to actually read and learn the Qur'an, we're supposed to know what it says in total. This is why so many non-Muslims and casual Muslims get confused by what the Qur'an teaches, since they try to take one passage without knowing the other conditions for it.

I said that because the Qur'an not only says a woman must be allowed to choose her husband, but she cannot be forced into it. And she has the right to divorce him if he isn't living up to his religious duties. Now, a man is allowed to choose his wife from among his servants or even from the captives in a war, but she still must choose of her own will to accept him and they still can't have unwed sex or else they will suffer the before mentioned penalty. There are a lot of other conditions as well, such as the husband must give a valuable gift to the bride, there must be a minimum number of witnesses from the bride and the groom, and much more. All of these add on top of each other, with these not even including any cultural requirements for marriage (like potential dowries to the family, marriage licenses, being vetted by family members, etc).

BONUS: If you notice, the Muhsin Khan translation of Ayat 24:2 adds something major that the actual Qur'an doesn't say. It says that the penalty for fornication by married people (aka "adultery") is stoning to death, even though the Qur'an doesn't actually say that. This is a reason I like for people to show a link to the translation of the Qur'an that they're using. Because anyone can add or subtract things from the text and claim their interpretations are "correct".

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
Just for the record, which specific countries are you asking about? Also, you're implying that it's something that's "official" as opposed to something that's done in the dark. Because there are hidden brothels all over the world, even in the US. Many Western and "1st world" countries have them and they're "staffed" with human trafficking victims, runaways, and more. Cartels, gangs, organized crime groups, Yakuza, and even many common "pimps" do this on a daily basis.

You know very well what he was referring to, yet try to deflect the fact, equating a very well known thing, with an illegal trade.

So be it...

harem
ˈhɑːriːm,hɑːˈriːm,ˈhɛːrəm/
noun

(in former times) the separate part of a Muslim household reserved for wives, concubines, and female servants.
"we were invited into the harem in the rear of the house"

the women occupying a harem; the wives (or concubines) of a polygamous man.
"the Maharaja of Delhi had a very fine harem of 18 young and nubile wives"

a reply to: Parafitt

LOL You can quote any bs definition you want. Harems are still forbidden in Islam. Unlike you, I actually quoted 5 different translations of the Qur'an itself and gave a link to it. That's like saying strip clubs and brothels are permissible in Christianity just because many self described Christians pay for prostitutes.

a reply to: enlightenedservant
Of course it's forbidden. I don't understand your point. The question had nothing to do with whether it's right or wrong, he just wanted the correct name. Calm down.

a reply to: theboarman

They have underground harems in the US and Europe too. The forced prostitution kind. MSNBC had a series with Contessa Brewer exposing it all over the US.

It's called white slavery, or that is the old school word for it.

Pedo rings exist in the US and Europe as well.

Actually, a Harem is just where women and children are kept separate and - presumably - controlled and enclosed.

A Harem may contain wives and mistresses, consorts, concubines and all that.

In Islam (as per OP) the Harem is a way to maintain female separation. Whether Harem's are a feature of today's world is in may ways irrelevant, because in all countries where Muslims are the predominant force, women and girls are culturally treated as second class and separated from society. They have less freedom, less rights, less control of their lives, less access to health and education.

You don't need to have a Harem to make sure your women s=don't leave the house!

You have a bit of a mixed up idea of what a harem is.
It has nothing to do with brothels or sex or slavery. It is just a (turkish/ottoman) historical concept of a portion of the house, usually in polygamous households, forbidden (the word harem literally means 'forbidden') to adult males.

It is the European obsession with the exoticness and foreignness of the idea that spread such a ridiculous understanding of it. There seems to be an entire genre of european paintings involving semi/totally naked women lounging about in their fantasy version of a harem.

Also, I don't think there are any countries, muslim or otherwise, that still have harems. Saudi Arabia, maybe?

originally posted by: GemmyMcGemJew
a reply to: enlightenedservant
Of course it's forbidden. I don't understand your point. The question had nothing to do with whether it's right or wrong, he just wanted the correct name. Calm down.

LOL Maybe you should learn a thing called "context". Then re-read the thread and see who was responding to who. Then you'll see why I responded the way I did.