Sophia the Goddess and Holy Spirit

a reply to: chr0naut

Jehovah is what I used, and different versions have variously Lord, Jehovah or Yahweh. The Tanakh has Adonai.

The spirit of God is said to have descended upon Jephthah immediately before he asks him to grant him this request (where are you getting Jeconiah?). His request is granted and his sacrifice carried out. You limit this Jehovah to one method of getting people carry out his orders. Stirring up the Mede's is another example of him manipulating people to things.

The prophets record of Jehovah saying himself that he is the cause of good and evil was what I was referring to when I said he is a hypocrite.

Him sending his spirit on Jephthah is the cause of him asking for this deal. You keep avoiding this.

originally posted by: Szarah
a reply to: Szarah

You must have missed the part where Jehovah tells Isaiah that he is stirring up the Mede's, the eventual rapists that he knows about in advance, to do this to Babylon. Its in the sentence immediately following the reference I gave you.

And Jephthah had the spirit of Jehovah descend on him right before he has the urge to ask him for this deal. You must have missed that too.

So Jehovah did order it, in the same fashion as he hardened Pharoahs heart.

Stirring up the Medes is different from telling them to commit rape. Consider that a newspaper may stir up people about crime statistics but this does not make the newspaper culpable. Your argument seems to hinge on the fact that the prophecy is accurate.

The bit about the Spirit of the Lord descending upon Jephthah explains that he was then motivated to travel away from the caves in the hills, where he lived, towards the enemy nations some distance away.

This would have been a few days march on foot.

The form of the last word in this section in Hebrew is also final, the word for "Ammon" ends in a final 'nun' ( ן not נ ), indicating that the sentence, phrase, paragraph or concept is complete. This breaks any following text off into a new section.

Clearly, the bit about Jephthah's vow is unrelated to God motivating him to join Israel in defending their patch.

So Adonai didn't "order it".

originally posted by: Szarah
a reply to: chr0naut

Jehovah is what I used, and different versions have variously Lord, Jehovah or Yahweh. The Tanakh has Adonai.

The spirit of God is said to have descended upon Jephthah immediately before he asks him to grant him this request (where are you getting Jeconiah?). His request is granted and his sacrifice carried out. You limit this Jehovah to one method of getting people carry out his orders. Stirring up the Mede's is another example of him manipulating people to things.

The prophets record of Jehovah saying himself that he is the cause of good and evil was what I was referring to when I said he is a hypocrite.

Him sending his spirit on Jephthah is the cause of him asking for this deal. You keep avoiding this.

My apologies, for some reason I got "Jeconiah" stuck in my head (my weak excuse is that I'm currently reading the book of the prophet Jeremiah). It was, of course, "Jephthah" that I should have been saying.

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Szarah
a reply to: Szarah

You must have missed the part where Jehovah tells Isaiah that he is stirring up the Mede's, the eventual rapists that he knows about in advance, to do this to Babylon. Its in the sentence immediately following the reference I gave you.

And Jephthah had the spirit of Jehovah descend on him right before he has the urge to ask him for this deal. You must have missed that too.

So Jehovah did order it, in the same fashion as he hardened Pharoahs heart.

Stirring up the Medes is different from telling them to commit rape. Consider that a newspaper may stir up people about crime statistics but this does not make the newspaper culpable. Your argument seems to hinge on the fact that the prophecy is accurate.

The bit about the Spirit of the Lord descending upon Jephthah explains that he was then motivated to travel away from the caves in the hills, where he lived, towards the enemy nations some distance away.

This would have been a few days march on foot.

The form of the last word in this section in Hebrew is also final, the word for "Ammon" ends in a final 'nun' ( ן not נ ), indicating that the sentence, phrase, paragraph or concept is complete. This breaks any following text off into a new section.

Clearly, the bit about Jephthah's vow is unrelated to God motivating him to join Israel in defending their patch.

So Adonai didn't "order it".

I gotta say, I do not agree with either of those interpretations.

The spirit descending is in the same small paragraph where he asks for this deal. It is the cause, and is accepted. Jephthah is victorious and kills his own daughter because he knows what will happen if he doesn't. Bad things. His victory alone is proof of acceptance. You know it when he rejects a sacrifice. Bad things happen, not victory.

That God knew about the rapes ahead of time, yet stirred up the Mede's regardless, puts the blame on him from any angle.

You can interpret it like that if you want, but it is not the way it reads. It isn't logical, and I think you are reading it how you want it to. I don't want it to read the way it does, but it just does.

originally posted by: Szarah

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Szarah
a reply to: Szarah

You must have missed the part where Jehovah tells Isaiah that he is stirring up the Mede's, the eventual rapists that he knows about in advance, to do this to Babylon. Its in the sentence immediately following the reference I gave you.

And Jephthah had the spirit of Jehovah descend on him right before he has the urge to ask him for this deal. You must have missed that too.

So Jehovah did order it, in the same fashion as he hardened Pharoahs heart.

Stirring up the Medes is different from telling them to commit rape. Consider that a newspaper may stir up people about crime statistics but this does not make the newspaper culpable. Your argument seems to hinge on the fact that the prophecy is accurate.

The bit about the Spirit of the Lord descending upon Jephthah explains that he was then motivated to travel away from the caves in the hills, where he lived, towards the enemy nations some distance away.

This would have been a few days march on foot.

The form of the last word in this section in Hebrew is also final, the word for "Ammon" ends in a final 'nun' ( ן not נ ), indicating that the sentence, phrase, paragraph or concept is complete. This breaks any following text off into a new section.

Clearly, the bit about Jephthah's vow is unrelated to God motivating him to join Israel in defending their patch.

So Adonai didn't "order it".

I gotta say, I do not agree with either of those interpretations.

The spirit descending is in the same small paragraph where he asks for this deal. It is the cause, and is accepted. Jephthah is victorious and kills his own daughter because he knows what will happen if he doesn't. Bad things. His victory alone is proof of acceptance. You know it when he rejects a sacrifice. Bad things happen, not victory.

That God knew about the rapes ahead of time, yet stirred up the Mede's regardless, puts the blame on him from any angle.

You can interpret it like that if you want, but it is not the way it reads. It isn't logical, and I think you are reading it how you want it to. I don't want it to read the way it does, but it just does.

I have just seen that some translations insert an "and" between the two passages or otherwise try and connect them together.

In Hebrew, this would have been a "vav" ( ו ). It does not exist in the Hebrew text. Perhaps the translators thought that Jephthah and his army was traveling to the land of "Ammo" and assumed the final form 'nun' was actually a 'vav'?

To join the disconnected sections of text is clearly a mistranslation, probably carried over from the original error in the King James Translation.

a reply to: chr0naut

It isn't a translation error, it isn't just one edition and I doubt that all those teams of scholars got it wrong.

Translation errors usually occur to lessen the severity of a passage or to hide something. They don't make errors that make God look like a psycho. If it says it then it's in there.

I have probably the two most reliable translations that exist, one being the NRSV and the other one with a books worth of footnotes and introductions that explains things like that and makes no mention.

Both use the Masoretic and Qumran texts, the Greek and Latin and are Catholic. My KJV and GNT also have it.

Do you speak and read Hebrew?

originally posted by: Szarah
a reply to: chr0naut

It isn't a translation error, it isn't just one edition and I doubt that all those teams of scholars got it wrong.

Translation errors usually occur to lessen the severity of a passage or to hide something. They don't make errors that make God look like a psycho. If it says it then it's in there.

I have probably the two most reliable translations that exist, one being the NRSV and the other one with a books worth of footnotes and introductions that explains things like that and makes no mention.

Both use the Masoretic and Qumran texts, the Greek and Latin and are Catholic. My KJV and GNT also have it.

Do you speak and read Hebrew?

I read a little in a few languages, my pronunciation probably sucks.

I'm not greatly proficient in any language but English.

a reply to: Parazurvan

Though there was a noted god of wisdom, Sophia, there is also the Eastern Orthodox Saint Sophia. They're two are different persons (if you believe in Sophia the goddess) & are often confused for one another.

St. Sophia lived in the first century and was the mother of three girls named Faith, Hope and Charity. The girls were martyred as children under the rule of Hadrian & Sophia died three days later praying over their graves. You may note the repetition of the Trinity in her story. Three daughters & three days. www.antiochian.org...

There is no mention of Sophia in the Bible but her daughters are referenced in Corinthians. You may notice that through countless translations the daughter named Charity has been changed to Love. biblehub.com... Those who honor Sophia reference Proverbs:
"Proverbs 8:22-31 is often quoted to support Sophia goddess worship" www.gotquestions.org...

There are those who choose to recognize Sophia as having existed before or coexisted with "Go
d". She provided the wisdom for His acts of creation. Again, Proverbs 8:22-31: “The Lord possessed me at the beginning of his work,
the first of his acts of old.
23 Ages ago I was set up,
at the first, before the beginning of the earth.
24 When there were no depths I was brought forth,
when there were no springs abounding with water"

While Sophia is not ever mentioned by name in the Bible, there are many references to finding, learning & achieving wisdom. It is not difficult to imagine that early Greeks & Romans influenced by the Greek god/goddess system would include a personification of Wisdom in effort to explain their points. "God" is such a difficult concept to understand considering the culture of ancient societies. By using a familiar personification to explain what God or Jesus preached, the lessons, allegories, metaphors & parables were more accessible & palatable to early converts. There are many instances in early Bibles & Gnostic texts that reference other legends & myths involving the gods & godesses that have been edited out or revised to make the new writings more acceptable to early Christians as well as modern translations for current Christians. It was a huge culture change to go from Polytheism to Monotheism. Monotheism required people to take more responsibility for themselves rather then having the opinion of blaming the gods/goddesses.

Just my two cents about the two different Sophia's.
~LB

I Am Pinocchio... And As Such... I Must Tell A Lie!
Bare With Me...

She Was Wise To Keep You. It Mattered! That Is Her Wisdom!
She Was Wise With Want... As You Were Wise To Be Without Want!

Her Weights And Measures Did Not Affect You. So... She Kept You!

The First Of Her Enchantments Was To Show You "A Strange God!"
In All His Works (72) He Was Brilliant! Worthy Of God Status...
Then Along Came You. And He "RAPED" Himself... That Was The Strangest Thing You Ever Showed Her... She Was Wise To Keep You! And You Were Wise To Show Her...

Rape: He Lost His Grip On Reality (Mind & Body) And In His Mouth Was The Spittle That Made Him Strange. That Is The Definition Of A Strange God. A Mouthful Of Spit! Which... He... Decides... To... Swallow! Once He Does... He... Is... Raped! But The Funny Kind Of Rape... Self Rape.

What You May Desire... Is What She Has To Offer. She Is SEX!
In Her Wisdom... She Called Herself Virtue And Priceless. She Is A Prize And A Praise.
But... You Are Wise To Keep Your Trust In God! That Is Your Wisdom...

Whatever Thing You're Trying To Say... Is Not Likely Suited For Talk. Just Be Silent! Silence Is Golden. The Difference Between Her Wisdom And Your God's Wisdom Is That Her's Is Not Of Profession... Nor Confession. It Is Action. God's Is Based On Oath. That Light Is Eternal.
To God You Owe Confession And Profession. To Her You Owe Action. Be It Far From Me To Prove To You What She Is. You Should Practice Silence.

She Is Wise To Keep You. However... Life Is What You Make It.


This Wisdom You Believe We're Going To Learn From You And Internet... Doesn't Suit Her Taste.
Keep Her Secret. Men Are Not Inclined To Know Your Secret. We Each Have Our Own.

Also... She Is Not Called Sophia. Neither Is Her Name Wise To Consider.
Yours Is What She Calls....