Taking on UFOs, out-of-the-box

We do not know what UFOs are, but we can assure two things based on the evidence compiled over the decades:

1. UFOs do exist as A) physical objects B) making impossible maneuvers at impossible speeds in our skies C) under seemingly intelligent or reactive or interactive control (whatever you want to call it) and D) leaving tracks and causing effects and aftereffects on the ground, on human beings and animals, on machinery.

A), B), C) and D) features have been thoroughly documented over the last decades. It is not a matter of faith. It is a matter of study, research and knowledge.

2. A secret human technology can be categorically discarded. A lot of sound and fury all over the internet on this issue, but totally baseless, imho, if we keep thinking on a rational basis. David Marler makes very good points about it in his excellent book Triangular UFOs.

There are three main arguments against the secret man-made tech hypothesis:

First, all these objects making impossible maneuvers at impossible speeds are being reported since many decades ago, at least from the very beginning of the nuclear era. So why was this technology, if human, not openly used in wars, in humanitarian missions, etc.? Why all this technology, if human, was confined to the rear of our social fabric and not openly used despite its clear technological success and its not-difficult-to-imagine costly development? Why are we still producing crafts which, technologically speaking, are infinitely far behind these allegedly secret man-made supercrafts?

Is it all a conspiracy? A conspiracy for what? Is it reasonable even to consider for a second the chance of a big conspiracy on this issue? Is it reasonable to assume that we humans have this amazing technology since many decades ago and the governments just use it for…? For what exactly? For making Jim Oberg capable of talking about satellite reentries?

It takes an unsurmountable hit of faith and a no less unsurmountable cognitive dissonance to consider even for a second the possibility of this conspiracy.

On issues such as the UFO issue, we should always cling to reason, but above all to reasonability, which is a different and mostly forgotten thing. We always should remember professor James McDonald.

Second, the widely reported sudden stops and other impossible maneuvers and speeds would instantly kill any human pilot on board. So what if these crafts are remotely controlled and have no pilots?

We come here again to point 1: In the 1940s? In the 1950s? In the 1960s? Now? So earthly superpowers (Americans? Russians?) have had this amazing remotely controlled technology for many decades but they didn’t use it at all at any of the many wars they fought. They, Americans and Russians, preferred their seedy choppers taken down in Korea, in Vietnam, in Afganistan or wherever, disregarding the public pressure, the political agenda of the time and the thousands of military lives taken, just because… Well, because… Really I cannot figure out a single reason. Can you?

Third, earthly superpowers flying these crafts over highly populated cities with their lights on and interferring with the very own military which they are supposedly coming from, sometimes disabling their very own nuclear missiles or making their very own jets to scramble and making their very own military personnel crazy about radars and reports to be written… Imho, this is to be discarded if you are not a very religious person (that is, conspiratorial) with an immense hit of faith inside you.

The most important: to always cling to reasonability. And facts.

Sorry that I am not saying something new, but I wanted to say it.

a reply to: Gothmog
Why must aliens be of a super-mega-intelect. They just might have stumbled on the technology to traverse space.
Also a lot of UFO enthusiasts treat the reason of curiousity very tritely.
Let me give you a simple example, please treat this with an open mind and not dismiss it as stupid.
A lion living on the Serengeti plains lives his life as he sees fit (whether he's self aware should be suspended). He knows nothing of big cities or even a race called humans. Yet,every so often these being appear in things(we call vehicles)which travel faster than he can run. The beings hang about watching the pride(his tribe, his beings) then go away to who knows where.
What reason would he put on it? He doesn't know about vehicles, he doesn't know what the beings are, he doesn't know why they come and go. Yet they do, and they exist, they are real.
A couple of hundred years ago humans paid high prices and suffered hardships and even life threatening travel just to glimpse exotic animals. Do not rule out curiousity as a reason for any visitation.

a reply to: Gothmog

Damn, you're bringing out my inner nit-picker

By the time a species was at a level to travel at light speed or warp space , there would probably be no need for emotion. No curiosity , no empathy to want to see a new "species" emerging. There would be no need for research as to them we would be meaningless.

Are you possibly projecting a lot of abstract values on one or more speculative civilisations?

What would drive a species to the level of 'travel at light speed or warp space?' Might it be curiosity to see other places?

If our speculative 'they' had the capacity to travel, what would motivate their decision not to use it?

Would an emotionless intelligence cease searching for what's novel?

Is there a reason to conclude such an advanced intelligence couldn't be in many places?

a reply to: ch1n1t0
Excellent thread ch1n1t0 S&F
Ever since I started reading 911 conspiracy theories I have visualized a master plan behind it, so far my findings have been empty until now but do I have a wild theory, here it goes:
Since the Roswell incident the military aligned themselves with the 'evil' grays in exchange for technology, sometime ago the grays told the military no more technology unless they breed out the 'Nordic' traces in the human race (grays are sworn enemies of the Nordics). Then we get 911 to start turmoil in the ME, then we get mass migrations from the ME to Europe, America etc...

originally posted by: valleean

Sorry that I am not saying something new, but I wanted to say it.

No need to feel sorry, as pointed earlier, me saying that none of the suggested solutions so far have been correct is nothing new, and I'm not saying something that no one has ever said by now and I'm far from these thoughts myself. I just find it weird that almost no one has tried letting go of their own bias, to realize that we really know nothing about the who's and why's around UFOs. Not only that we don't know, just the deceitful and advanced characteristics surrounding the whole UFO enigma tell us more than enough to logically come to a conclusion - it's very likely that no one so far has been able to provide a suggestion that even comes close to putting these questions to rest. Far more likely, in my opinion, than any of guesses put forward.

My observation is that I can accept that these same UFOs have been encountered in the past (pre-40s), but much rarely than post-40s. Something triggered their interest and I suppose it really was the split of the atom. Also, I don't really think they're from out there somewhere, I'm more open to octopuses flying these UFOs than aliens.

And that would be a surprise, won't it?

I've asked this question before, but... what would actually make you fill your pants and rethink your whole world view? If you found out that aliens have been visiting for some time now and are interested in how we're developing? Or if it turns out there has always been a species on Earth that have simply let us think we're on top of the food chain? I vote with two hands for the second because... Well, just think about it for two minutes and you'll get me.

But with all above-mentioned, it is highly likely that I'm very wrong

Thanks for all the input guys, some thought provoking posts.

My opinion is they are dimensional in a sense, but then dimensions never make sense. I guess by the concept of dimensional, they would out of reality, time or not held by conscious limits. Almost to like using spiritual or ghostly terms.

Outside the box...

Especially if they are always evading while constantly remaining in provable. It would be like they know when they are being looked at due to be so sensitive to us maybe.

If there is a connection with the oceans the only thing I can think of, is that all life comes from the sea.

a reply to: crayzeed

Why must aliens be of a super-mega-intelect. They just might have stumbled on the technology to traverse space.

I probably misled with the "intellect". Its not really a matter of IQ , rather the advancement of scientific knowledge over the aeons . Now , as science answers one question the next gets exponentially more difficult .I think it is called "the natural progression of science". That would not matter if you were from the Alpha Centauri system or from good old Sol .Now , this is all popular theory. To progress , you have to answer question 1 . Then , over the years , "eureka" moment and you have answered question 2 . Buuuttttt now that has left you with questions 3 , 4 , 5 and 6 that must be answered before you can move forward .I.E. , if you believe in evolution and no "divine intervention" it is millions of large steps from using tools to putting a man on the moon. After that , it is large steps outward.Rome wasnt built in a day. Lots of questions have to be answered first. Then , you have to be able to answer that penultimate question on how to defeat that Einstein's nasty space/time deal.The one that states the closer you get to the universal speed limit of light , the more mass you take on.The more mass you take on , the more energy required . The amount of energy required is infinite just to get close.And that is literal infinite , not subjective infinite.I.E. you would literally have to have at your beck and call the sum of all energy created in the history of the universe .

Hope this helps to understand my views . And I emphasize the word "my" .
No devil going forward n this thread.Like it too much....

My guess is demonic in nature and origin and this is the progression we have been heading for a while.

As for advanced military technology, some of it probably is secret projects and air/spacecraft. In 2008 I saw an odd item in flight, and was told that 31 airframes were due to be de-classified. Only four of those were manned aircraft. So there are a lot of unmanned science projects flying around. These would maneuver in ways that a piloted craft would be unsafe or appear un natural.

originally posted by: Ludivocus
My guess is demonic in nature and origin and this is the progression we have been heading for a while.

Demonic is just a cultural/era/level of understanding reference. It is the same as stating UFOs are extraterrestrial (after we found out about star systems, that's when we began seeing aliens). Are these related - the ol' stories of demons and UFOs? Some might be, some not (if we follow logic and rhetoric). I think them coming from the sky is a part of their deceit, and was planned thousands of years ago, considering the fact that we will reach our current level of understanding.

These would maneuver in ways that a piloted craft would be unsafe or appear unnatural.

Indeed, some of the cases can be accounted for these. Not all, though.

Also, to throw some additional oil in the fire and cause this was asked - what if these projects ARE used for wars/military operations? You and I wouldn't know about that. Also what do wars generate? Money. Hence, they crushing the enemy slowly and easily, be it a natural or self-created enemy. But yet, again, I have to stress that I no longer believe that the "real" UAP are only military.

At the end of the day, the cards are on the table, some options are withering away, while others are growing stronger as being possible explanations.

And at the end, the thought that we all might be very wrong is terrifying, on its own. How would we all feel if the top scientists, government officials and military ones, along with the US president and a bunch of other presidents came openly forward and gave you the so called disclosure - "We admit that we know something is flying in our skies. We can confirm that it is highly unlikely it is extraterrestrial, but it IS something, and we don't have an idea what it is."... Mmmm, no, instead they'd take advantage and use the very existence of these to empower them in the eyes of layman. And yes, they, along intelligence agencies, are a powerful structure, but how powerful? Zappingly, invisibly powerful? Or they would want us to believe?

I forgot to thank each and every one of you for the contribution. Some have put interesting POVs on the table.

I hope that it's obvious that the reason why I'm jumping from a concluded explanation to a totally different concluded explanation in one post or sometimes even one sentence is because I try to remain open and non-biased. If I had to escape the way I am for a moment and become closed-minded, I'd say that besides human-tech UFOs, there are only two possibilities. The "other" are a local but very different species that resides underwater and have been there for a long time, if not aquatic by default, then at least aquatic by choice. Or we really live in an emulation (I wouldn't say simulation) with a real-time patching algorithm, which is just as elusive.

But this is me, just being closed-minded and picking what serves my way of understanding the world best NOW. I realize that while most of these might turn out to be right, at the same time none of them may turn out to be nowhere near home (as previously noted in a few posts).

It's honesty, on my part, to share my opinion on each and every one of these explanations' likeliness. I'm reaching out to these odds, still keeping all cards on the table, but playing it the way that poker works. I'm not a good poker player, but I might have what it takes, it's just that it doesn't fit my mindset.

I'm just trying to make better sense of it all, with the limits of the information, evidence and range for possible conclusions.

With the little that I think I know for the 6 years of digging I put my bet that it's a combination of two (not more. Of course, disregarding planes, Sirius, the likes, and rare natural phenomenon) different explanations. One is the human side. The other is the mystery that I'm currently convinced exists. I'm just worried it might be out of our grasp what these really are.

For many of you with 20+ years in UFOlogy 6 years seem like nothing, and I don't mean to divide myself from other people or belittle the magnitude of their interest, experience or knowledge as I'm a humble person in the first place BUT I'm sure that very few people have had a sighting, even if military/black OP, like the one that I had no choice but to live through with a friend of mine that some of you might be familiar with. I have been reading. I have been thinking. Hard. So hard, I started having migraines.

a reply to: Kandinsky

Are you possibly projecting a lot of abstract values on one or more speculative civilisations?

Speculative , unless you know something I dont.

What would drive a species to the level of 'travel at light speed or warp space?' Might it be curiosity to see other places?

Resources.

If our speculative 'they' had the capacity to travel, what would motivate their decision not to use it?

They would use it at need .

Would an emotionless intelligence cease searching for what's novel?

Gotta ask yourself , what would be novel at that point ? They have seen a million worlds come and go . Stars born, and stars winking out.

Is there a reason to conclude such an advanced intelligence couldn't be in many places?

No , and they probably would be .

And this is purely hypothetical as far as a civilization somewhere out there able to get past a few laws of physics.

a reply to: Kandinsky

Kandinsky, it's great having you around the thread, I have a bit of an off-topic question for you which I can't imagine why I haven't asked before. Seems I'm not that bright of a bulb as I seem to think of myself haha. Darn ego. Anyhow.

Question - can you point me in the direction of sightings that last more than 4-5 hours in one area with multiple witnesses? Are there any? I'm not referring to repeated sightings as I'm well aware of many such. Or in other words, what's the longest lasting sighting you have heard of?

originally posted by: TerryMcGuire

originally posted by: Gothmog
a reply to: TerryMcGuire
I recanted a bit..read my post right above yours.

Patty cries: "Mr. Chambers, don't get on that ship! The rest of the book To Serve Man, it's... it's a ______"

Peace.

I was ten when that first aired. There was nothing out there like that, like the Twilight Zone. I watched them all, week after week after week and it blew my little boys mind right out of its circuits.

Twilight Zone and Outer Limits. Heck , I didnt watch cartoons when I was young. No Johnny Quest , Hadjii , and Bandit for me (well . sometimes)

a reply to: ch1n1t0

The "other" are a local but very different species that resides underwater and have been there for a long time

Very interesting point there....Now , ask yourself a "what if" . What if WE truly are the aliens.
Thanks for the Thread , I am enjoying something other than anti- Hillary , anti- Sanders , anti- Trump, anti-US(well , you get the picture.

a reply to: Kandinsky

Thanks , Kandinsky . On behalf of the OP and myself.
Good one here

a reply to: Gothmog

Good answers

Some say the value of experience adds to the culture and the sum of experiences comes to define the whole. By extension, reducing one's exposure to risk and novelty would bring diminishing returns to a species/civilisation. Now, I see you're promoting the concept of a species/civ that's experienced all there is explore. However, I argue that a complacent society would become a failing one.

I'd also suggest that a wise culture would recognise how memetic mutations have great value to progress in the same way we're the overall sum of genetic mutations over millions of years.

In your speculative scenario, you portray a powerful and almost infinitely jaded culture. Mightn't the pursuit of novelty potentially become of singular value?

a reply to: ch1n1t0

Question - can you point me in the direction of sightings that last more than 4-5 hours in one area with multiple witnesses?

Off the top of my head, no, I can't recall any reports lasting past 4 hours with multiple witnesses. I'd expect there are some out there because people are people and we've been reporting crazy, anomalous stuff for a very long time.

a reply to: Kandinsky

In your speculative scenario, you portray a powerful and almost infinitely jaded culture.

Your definition of powerful ? Like in wars , etc? Naw , by nature a race that knowing would not need "powerful" to exist .Now comes one reason for extraterrestrial visitation. The need to nurture and protect a race in its infancy.

a reply to: valleean

How about not using them because it would prove we can travel faster and further than what they have been telling us? Or the questions that would follow such as where did you get this technology and why has been kept secret for so long? Where have you traveled already and/or have you encountered any E.T. intelligent life? What else did you find there, are there any precious minerals...etc?

It would be the end of the world we know of, public would demand answers and technology, perhaps even stop fighting eachother and focus entirely on space exploration. Just consider the opportunity factor. No more use of oil and guns? Something the elite cannot agree with...

a reply to: Kandinsky

Well, you know a person who's seen multiple silent UFOs (at least 25) (not only nocturnal lights) for a little more than 6 hours. And I'm far from bragging, you could guess that I even have a little bit of hatred towards the UFO phenom due to this. Was it military? Or was it the other? Heck... I dunno.

One of our great contributors on ATS (it could be even you but I think it was Xtraeme) mentioned something about the Sonora Desert and such lengthy sightings. Tee-hee If you happen to recall a really lengthy one, please, drop me a u2u, thanks!

Gothmog... Who's that Hill Ary you're refering to?