Dealing with Other Interstellar Civilizations: From Science Fiction to Reality

Let's create our own fictional story to explore. Imagine, for instance, that humanity’s first manned deep-space vessel is exploring the nearest star to Earth, Alpha Centauri A. We encounter an alien vessel, which positions itself off the nose of our ship. Are we in a stand-off? The situation could certainly be construed in such a way. Are they attempting to obstruct our movement forward? Do they mean to suggest our presence is unwelcome and wish for us to turn around and leave? Or perhaps they intend to prevent us from proceeding onto a danger ahead? Might they be greeting us? Is their choice in positioning meant to communicate a gesture? Or could they be simply stating "here we are?" Impossible to say.

Perhaps if we were to move our ship to the left, we could observe their reaction in hopes of establishing their motivation. Maybe they'd remain where they are, increasing the probability that they didn't mean to obstruct our movement. Yet, could be that they'd perceive our movement as unfriendly. Maybe they'd think it in contravention of their effort to block us. Maybe they'd see it as a signal that we're not interested in communicating with them. They might perceive it as an insulting reply to their gesture. Is it really such a good idea to move left at all? If we do move left and they don't respond, is the next rational choice to move somewhat forward? If they don't respond again, would that be proof that they're not attempting to obstruct our movement?

Maybe they didn't respond earlier because we in fact didn't move forward, only left, and by moving forward at that point we might invite attack if they are indeed attempting to obstruct us. Even if that hadn't been their intention, they may be just as nervous and confused as we are, if not more so. What if they're friendly, but perceived our movement left then forward as an attempt to flank them in preparation for attack? If we did move left then forward without response on either occasion, we will have successfully established that the extraterrestrials probably weren't attempting to aggressively obstruct our progress forward. Yet, we may upset an otherwise friendly species, or we may cause an aggressive species to attack. Perhaps we should instead remain idle, and observe them in hopes of a gesture to signal their motivations. Yes, let us do nothing.

A minute has gone by. Fifteen minutes has gone by. Surely we feel both confused and uncomfortable with the situation, and yet we've still learned and accomplished nothing. We’ve done nothing. We must act, but how? Should we retreat? Would the extraterrestrials respond as a bear would in the event that you suddenly turned around and ran? If they did pursue, would this be evidence of aggression, or evidence that they're motivated to interact with us, and regret our decision to leave? Perhaps we should continue to remain where we are. Yet, it could be that they do indeed mean to run us off, and every moment we remain here brings us closer to them attempting to communicate this point more aggressively. Maybe their patience will eventually wane, and they'll attack if we remain.

Perhaps we should attempt to communicate directly, but how? Could it be that they're in the process of attempting to establish communication with us, and we just don't realize it? Perhaps transmitting a signal at a frequency too low or high for our equipment to receive? It seems probable that they mean to communicate something through the position of their ship; are we certain we shouldn't attempt to communicate a message through moving our own ship? Doesn't the fact that we've not moved communicate that we're receptive to their apparent statement of "hello," assuming the message wasn't actually "go away?" Is there an image which we could project holographically that they would understand as a friendly greeting? Is there something we could transmit by radio signal that they would understand? By lights? How do we talk to these beings?

Suddenly, they begin moving forward. Their trajectory suggests that they won't collide with us, but they will pass by very closely. There's a bump against our hull, and the extraterrestrial vessel has ceased movement. They've docked with us, and they've achieved a hard seal. Are we being boarded? Seems fairly evident. Are we under attack? I'm not sure. Should we arm ourselves for the purpose of repelling invaders? Is it possible that they mean only to greet us face-to-face, perhaps due to perceiving no alternative method of progressing forward in the attempt to establish communication? It would indeed seem simpler to communicate face-to-face. Where's their docking port located anyway? Were they presenting it to us throughout the standoff, as though inviting us to dock? Before this question can be answered, our hatch opens. It's too late. They're stepping through. We've been boarded.

We were probably standing there as they took their "giant leap" onto our ship. If we had weapons aboard, we were probably armed. Whether we had the aliens in our sights as they stepped through is another question, and I'm unsure of the answer. They hadn't attacked us yet, and so we didn't open fire in confusion and terror on the first extraterrestrial species humanity encountered. We checked their hands for weapons, if they had any hands. We searched their bodies for any evidence of threat. We searched our own minds for the courage to say "hello." The extraterrestrials weren't armed and they didn't attack us that day. We finally had an answer to the question we've been asking since they first appeared in front of us, "are they friend, or are they foe?" They were friends. Probably. They had the courage to greet us through this gesture, and now it's through the gestures of body language and unintelligible sounds that our two species continue their efforts to communicate.

I don't know if any of our space-faring neighbors would actually behave in this manner, but I know humanity well enough to recognize that at least some of us would behave as the humans did in this scenario. As “we” did. Through the exploration of this potential situation, I find myself more curious than ever about something: How do we communicate with these beings? So tell me: what would you have done differently?

a reply to: Bedlam

AHEM!
Klingons homeworld,wouldn't be so EASY for the colonial fleet.
Kitties would be EASIER than the insane federation,to fight.

a reply to: Whatsthisthen

I wonder what would happen if they abducted a possessed individual?

a reply to: cavtrooper7

They would probably notice possession if telepathic.

Interesting idea, a vector of psychic contagion.

originally posted by: cavtrooper7
a reply to: Whatsthisthen

I wonder what would happen if they abducted a possessed individual?

Two for the price of one!

a reply to: Bedlam

Kzinti?

Wasnt that the sci fi book series about the tiger people of ursa majora who go around attacking every species they see?

I enjoyed those books. The best part is where we humans psychologically break their species and manage to convince them thst humans are made in the image of the real god who only favor humanity.

Kzinti were weird. They thought human females were a different species because they are equally as intelligent as the males which is not the case with their own species.

Anyways, I think first contact would have to be a psuedo darmok and jalad kinda encounter where communication is learned through equivalence.

originally posted by: BASSPLYR
a reply to: Bedlam

I enjoyed those books. The best part is where we humans psychologically break their species and manage to convince them thst humans are made in the image of the real god who only favor humanity.

Worse, you eventually find out that the Puppeteers have been breeding them for docility, and that the Kdaptist heresy (God formed Man in his own image) was probably seeded by Puppeteers as well, the Puppeteers also lured the Outsiders to We Made It and thus provided humanity with the secret of hyperdrive when we needed it to fight back against the Kzinti. Not for our benefit, but to keep from having to deal with kzin themselves.

a reply to: Bedlam

The puppeteer s were cpwardly for sure. Didnt they insist that everything be made round so they didnt hurt themselves on accident by getting poked by edges or corners?

Weirdos.

Anyway, the outsiders were interesting in the way they would do the pan spermia thing to lifeless planets so that they will have future clientele to sell stuff to. Squid people I tell you. Besides didnt they create some super species that nearly killed all life in the past. Howed the puppeteer species deal with that back then? The same way they delt with the kzin who were fast on their way to the same status of super killers?

I feel bad for the kzin. They got screwed. An infantile race just learning how to make tools when some space goons show up to make them into mercenary killing machines. Dumping technology and responsibilities on their species faster than they could digest and understand. Basically violating star treks prime directive to not interfere or assist developing intelligent species.

Naw, I dont feel bad for the kzin, they purposely breed their women dumb cause they were all a bunch of lowly misogynistic dicks. Ruined their species ultimately.

The one thing I didnt pick up or get about the series when I last read it as a teen was whats so great about humans? We were a bunch of pussies thanks to our governments. Breed all war like qualities out of us. Were we some sort of virtuosic genius or something and didnt know it?

Although it would be nice for humans to have a space faring society like in star trek. I feel we will more likely go the starwars/foundation series path.

originally posted by: BASSPLYR
a reply to: Bedlam
Besides didnt they create some super species that nearly killed all life in the past. Howed the puppeteer species deal with that back then?

That would be the Slavers. The Slavers killed all intelligent life in the galaxy because they were losing a war with the Tnuctipun. Then with no slave races to do the hard mental work for them, they devolved over time into Grogs. Maybe. That's not clear. The Outsiders being essentially immortal MIGHT have been around during the Slaver Ascendancy and just were immune to the Slaver apocalypse. Maybe they reseeded life in the Galaxy. If you're immortal, you trade differently.

The one thing I didnt pick up or get about the series when I last read it as a teen was whats so great about humans? We were a bunch of pussies thanks to our governments. Breed all war like qualities out of us. Were we some sort of virtuosic genius or something and didnt know it?

Well, the ARM caused everyone to be like millennials with little safe spaces, over time. All weapons technology and combat training was reserved for ARMs. Humanity as a whole forgot how to wage war. That, too, was probably driven by puppeteers. Once the Kzin started to encroach on human space, they had to turn that around and fast. But humanity was pretty pacifistic and might have lost except for the Outsiders going to We Made It, lured there by puppeteers.

Of course, the puppeteers were trying to breed for Teela Brown at the time, and for all I know, Teela's power spans time as well as space. That's a real question. You can't ever know, that's the odd bit about the Teela gene.

Plan for the worst possible scenario, first and foremost.

originally posted by: Navarro
Let's create our own fictional story to explore. Imagine, for instance, that humanity’s first manned deep-space vessel is exploring the nearest star to Earth, Alpha Centauri A. We encounter an alien vessel, which positions itself off the nose of our ship. Are we in a stand-off? The situation could certainly be construed in such a way. Are they attempting to obstruct our movement forward? Do they mean to suggest our presence is unwelcome and wish for us to turn around and leave? Or perhaps they intend to prevent us from proceeding onto a danger ahead? Might they be greeting us? Is their choice in positioning meant to communicate a gesture? Or could they be simply stating "here we are?" Impossible to say.

The basic universal(?) language one would employ is the law of the jungle.

Barring another's path is a challenge. Getting inside another's space means imminent violence is likely.

Perhaps if we were to move our ship to the left, we could observe their reaction in hopes of establishing their motivation. Maybe they'd remain where they are, increasing the probability that they didn't mean to obstruct our movement. Yet, could be that they'd perceive our movement as unfriendly. Maybe they'd think it in contravention of their effort to block us. Maybe they'd see it as a signal that we're not interested in communicating with them. They might perceive it as an insulting reply to their gesture. Is it really such a good idea to move left at all? If we do move left and they don't respond, is the next rational choice to move somewhat forward? If they don't respond again, would that be proof that they're not attempting to obstruct our movement?

They bared our progress. Therefore, they assume they are in control and they are more powerful.

We can either turn and run (risky), or make a gesture by clearly moving out of their way to let them pass while not backing down ourselves (better).

Maybe they didn't respond earlier because we in fact didn't move forward, only left, and by moving forward at that point we might invite attack if they are indeed attempting to obstruct us. Even if that hadn't been their intention, they may be just as nervous and confused as we are, if not more so. What if they're friendly, but perceived our movement left then forward as an attempt to flank them in preparation for attack? If we did move left then forward without response on either occasion, we will have successfully established that the extraterrestrials probably weren't attempting to aggressively obstruct our progress forward. Yet, we may upset an otherwise friendly species, or we may cause an aggressive species to attack. Perhaps we should instead remain idle, and observe them in hopes of a gesture to signal their motivations. Yes, let us do nothing.

Bad move. (We are going to die)

A minute has gone by. Fifteen minutes has gone by. Surely we feel both confused and uncomfortable with the situation, and yet we've still learned and accomplished nothing. We’ve done nothing. We must act, but how? Should we retreat? Would the extraterrestrials respond as a bear would in the event that you suddenly turned around and ran? If they did pursue, would this be evidence of aggression, or evidence that they're motivated to interact with us, and regret our decision to leave? Perhaps we should continue to remain where we are. Yet, it could be that they do indeed mean to run us off, and every moment we remain here brings us closer to them attempting to communicate this point more aggressively. Maybe their patience will eventually wane, and they'll attack if we remain.

We move sideways saving face.

Perhaps we should attempt to communicate directly, but how? Could it be that they're in the process of attempting to establish communication with us, and we just don't realize it? Perhaps transmitting a signal at a frequency too low or high for our equipment to receive? It seems probable that they mean to communicate something through the position of their ship; are we certain we shouldn't attempt to communicate a message through moving our own ship? Doesn't the fact that we've not moved communicate that we're receptive to their apparent statement of "hello," assuming the message wasn't actually "go away?" Is there an image which we could project holographically that they would understand as a friendly greeting? Is there something we could transmit by radio signal that they would understand? By lights? How do we talk to these beings?

We are already talking with them by our actions

Suddenly, they begin moving forward. Their trajectory suggests that they won't collide with us, but they will pass by very closely. There's a bump against our hull, and the extraterrestrial vessel has ceased movement. They've docked with us, and they've achieved a hard seal. Are we being boarded? Seems fairly evident. Are we under attack? I'm not sure. Should we arm ourselves for the purpose of repelling invaders? Is it possible that they mean only to greet us face-to-face, perhaps due to perceiving no alternative method of progressing forward in the attempt to establish communication? It would indeed seem simpler to communicate face-to-face. Where's their docking port located anyway? Were they presenting it to us throughout the standoff, as though inviting us to dock? Before this question can be answered, our hatch opens. It's too late. They're stepping through. We've been boarded.

We make sure we are all in the one room waiting for them. My knee pushes on the dead man's switch that will instantly blow everyone up in an instant.

We were probably standing there as they took their "giant leap" onto our ship. If we had weapons aboard, we were probably armed. Whether we had the aliens in our sights as they stepped through is another question, and I'm unsure of the answer.

No, we are just patiently waiting for them in casual, yet attentive silence.

They hadn't attacked us yet, and so we didn't open fire in confusion and terror on the first extraterrestrial species humanity encountered. We checked their hands for weapons, if they had any hands. We searched their bodies for any evidence of threat. We searched our own minds for the courage to say "hello." The extraterrestrials weren't armed and they didn't attack us that day. We finally had an answer to the question we've been asking since they first appeared in front of us, "are they friend, or are they foe?" They were friends. Probably. They had the courage to greet us through this gesture, and now it's through the gestures of body language and unintelligible sounds that our two species continue their efforts to communicate.

I am sorry, the meeting's outcome was decided when the aliens docked without invitation.

We blow our ship up taking the aliens too.


The people back home are too important to take chances with. The potential of being interrogated by unknown means is a problem.

The aliens may have someone observing from afar. If so, when the aliens went over the chain of events, they would realise that these unknown people are to be treated with respect.

We did not act with aggression, only self preservation.

The next meeting would be different.

originally posted by: Whatsthisthen
Plan for the worst possible scenario, first and foremost.

To plan for a situation as this, one needs to develop a procedure. What procedure would you recommend for first contact in open space?

The basic universal(?) language one would employ is the law of the jungle.

Barring another's path is a challenge. Getting inside another's space means imminent violence is likely.

It's difficult to say whether or not such a law might be universal. I would naturally expect any species to be instinctively opposed to having their personal space violated by an unknown. If a species evolved on a planet containing predators, it's hard to imagine how they managed to avoid extinction if they're not troubled by predators closing in on them, or unknown creatures in general, which may or may not be predatory. It is never the less possible that they were the only species which evolved on their planet, that all species on their planet were herbivores, or that none of the other creatures were ever dangerous enough to pose a threat to them. They could be like the small kid with a big mouth, until someone pops him in it. Sometimes you're invincible, until someone proves you otherwise.

Alternately, they may have meant to establish our demeanor. They challenged us specifically to gage our aggression. If we were to respond with hostility, then they'd know we're a threat from the start. Given that this species was the first humanity had ever met, and given that we're exploring our nearest star, we must still be new to space. In that case, it's probable that the species we've met isn't also new. As such, it's probable that they're more advanced than we are. They may have already managed to estimate that they were capable of defeating us should we attack anyhow.

Not to mention, who's to say that ship hasn't positioned itself between our ship and its home planet? If that ship had shown up in our solar system and started cruising toward Earth, wouldn't you have challenged that ship in precisely the same way? It may be an understandable, reasonable defensive action.

They bared our progress. Therefore, they assume they are in control and they are more powerful.

We can either turn and run (risky), or make a gesture by clearly moving out of their way to let them pass while not backing down ourselves (better).

We're in open space, so we obviously wouldn't need to move out've their way. They could maneuver around us if they so wished, and they presumably went out of their way to intercept us anyhow. Are you not concerned that moving out've their way could be perceived as submission?

Bad move. (We are going to die)

Given that they're statistically likely to have been roaming space longer than we have, and also given the fact that they've challenged us, it's probable that they're stronger than we are. In that case, if they're hostile, we're probably going to die no matter what we do.

We move sideways saving face.

On Earth, the smaller ship always yields to the larger, per the Law of the Sea. It's the same as the Law of the Jungle you've referenced, where an animal submits to the larger, more threatening animal. However, I expect that if a US Navy frigate were challenged in this way by a Russian Navy frigate, it wouldn't stop if it was moving, and it would maintain position if it was already stopped. Our ship however isn't necessarily a naval vessel. It seems to be a ship of exploration, given that we're currently engaged in the act of exploring. As such, I have to believe that we're motivated to explore these extraterrestrials to the best of our abilities. So far the vessel off our bow hasn't responded negatively toward our inaction, while any action we do take could result in a negative response. We're two pawns on a chess board with no other pieces in sight. I don't intend to move my only piece without good reason. Why are you so motivated to move?

We are already talking with them by our actions

In that case, neither one of us have said very much yet.

We make sure we are all in the one room waiting for them. My knee pushes on the dead man's switch that will instantly blow everyone up in an instant.

I'm not sure how many ships have dead man switches linked to self-destruct mechanisms installed on the floor adjacent the exterior hatch. While I'm sure you could scuttle the ship if you wished, I don't think you could achieve this in a moments notice. I don't even imagine that you would've had enough time to activate a self-destruct mechanism in the time between the alien ship starting to move and their entrance onto your ship. Nor do I believe there would've been enough time to disable the safety mechanisms on your torpedos/missiles before laughing them with the outer doors closed, disable the safety mechanisms on your reactor followed by overloading it, nor anything else of the sort. You would've needed to prepare this in advance, or fight them at the hatch, suppressing them long enough to prepare for and scuttle your ship.

No, we are just patiently waiting for them in casual, yet attentive silence.

Well, I hope your crew doesn't know you plan to destroy the ship, because I'm sure someone disagrees with your decision, and someone else just plain values their lives too much for that. The atmosphere might be less silent than you expect. Then again, this is the ship that has a self-destruct button on the floor in front of all the outer hatches. I suppose you'd sort've have to expect to blow up at some point with that sort've setup.

I am sorry, the meeting's outcome was decided when the aliens docked without invitation.

We blow our ship up taking the aliens too.


The people back home are too important to take chances with. The potential of being interrogated by unknown means is a problem.

The aliens may have someone observing from afar. If so, when the aliens went over the chain of events, they would realise that these unknown people are to be treated with respect.

We did not act with aggression, only self preservation.

The next meeting would be different.

We're only four light-years away from Earth, at our nearest star. If they were motivated to locate and molest Earth in some way, it would be easily done without any help from us. If the ship's local, there's a fantastic chance that they've already detected Earth anyway. They don't need to interrogate us or gain intelligence from our ship. There's then very little advantage in denying them the intelligence they could gather from us. The very best they could hope to achieve through capturing our ship would be a Trojan Horse attack, which I have reason to believe would be unlikely to succeed. The best thing to do for "the people back home" is avoid making enemies. It would be unwise to commit an act of war against these beings. You're much better off risking these guys capturing our ship and crew for the chance at peaceful contact. We're pawns; we expect to be sacrificed for such things.

a reply to: Navarro


You're suggestion of using laser holography...in order to possibly communicate with these otherworlder star travelers, that occasionally visit our planet is a good idea; because we don't have to physically confront them with a chance at first contact.


I've tried some primitive ways of trying to contact these space aliens...such as carvings in sandy cliff faces, chiseling messages in dead tree trunks that have fallen off the cliff, and written messages in waterproof bottles tied to hydro energy experiments; possibly performed by the otherworlders themselves.

These starfarers who have peaceably invaded our planet, have not made any attempts to takeover our planet...yet they could easily destroy earth's human civilizations by flinging a couple of large asteroids at us.

Yet they have confronted us with dazzling displays of aerial superiority over nuclear installations, with the possible wherewithal to dismantle them [ICBM's], by the use of some form of electronic hacking.

My assessment of the offensive and defensive capabilities of these alien starcraft [due to my own 1976 nighttime Foo Fighter sighting] is --- to say the least --- mind boggling!!! With what looks like a magnetically contained fusion plasma shield surrounding the starship itself, that can not only be used as photon fuel for the possible photon drive --- But also as a impenetrable defensive shield with radar and sound stealth capabilities, and a offensive computer attack program that can magnetically guide the electrically charged plasma toward it's intended target with devastating results!!!

a reply to: Navarro

One of the disciplines I adhered to was to follow the simulation and see what happens. The fun thing to do.

I chose the Law of the Jungle as the communication means because it is probably as close to a universal language as we can get. How animals behave towards each other is similar across the earth, even isolated places.

Our aliens have probably studied animal behavior in their world and maybe other worlds too.

In regards to developing a procedure. Hmmm, don't. A procedure is fine at home but it won't help anyone in an unknown situation dealing with unknowns.

I think any race that evolved in a preditor free environment would probably fall victim to the first race it met who had evolved among preditors.

There are a lot of what ifs. One cannot plan for them all, we would just overload and get bogged down in procedures.

I think it important that we do nothing hostile. Even blowing up the ship when invaded is not a hostile act. There are two ways to interpret self destruction.

One is these people must be approached with great care lest they die.

The other is they are not afraid to die.

In both cases the act of self destruction when cornered will create a lot of uncertainty in our aliens. Are these guys fearless, ruthless warriors or simply very cautious and xenophobic?

Either way the aliens will probably more cautious then their in your face first encounter.

That the alien ship blocked our path in close range and then proceded to board uninvited can only be interpreted in one way; a threat.

Although we are only 4 light years from earth, we don't know definately that the aliens know about us and where we come from. We must keep that secret until proven otherwise.

In the chess game, it is assumed that their are only two pawns. We know we have one piece, but not how many pieces the aliens have. In space exploration, one would ideally use probes and proxies during first encounters simply because it is intellegent. Our main body is out of sight, nice and safe and in control. We know nothing of our aliens. The ones we face may be clones created as expendables. In which case we will learn nothing of the creators, and the creators will know about us.

I would move aside first as a gesture of politeness and aknowledgement of peaceful intent as happens when two animals meet. To defer first is a sign of strength in many cases and not submission.

In the initial confrontation, action is everything. One wrong move will probably have consequences. The less is more principle.

I wouldn't go and meet the boarding party. That would be showing weakness. They boarded us without invitation. Make them come to us.

If it wrre my ship, I would have that self destruct that will go off if I am disabled. The crew would all have a certain qualification on board my ship. Bushido.

The reasoning is simple. Aliens met in space would probably have a scientific mind. Now the scientific mind, at least here on earth, has a certain trait. The scientific mind is trained to disect what it studies.

There are worse fates then death.

In the senario you gave, the aliens acted in a manner that gave two choices. Be in control of one's own fate, or trust the aliens would be nice. All the aliens actions were hostile in the final analysis.

------

I didn't mean to be curt in this reply, just so many questions and I thought brevity as correct.

Interesting exercise in thinking

originally posted by: Whatsthisthen a reply to: Navarro
I think it important that we do nothing hostile. Even blowing up the ship when invaded is not a hostile act. There are two ways to interpret self destruction.

One is these people must be approached with great care lest they die.

The other is they are not afraid to die.

In both cases the act of self destruction when cornered will create a lot of uncertainty in our aliens. Are these guys fearless, ruthless warriors or simply very cautious and xenophobic?

Either way the aliens will probably more cautious then their in your face first encounter.

One has to be extremely cautious when playing human games of deception with beings we've never met, and which are quite likely much more powerful than we. You said, "Even blowing up the ship when invaded is not a hostile act." This is the Orwellian "war is peace, love is hate" philosophy which our species is intimately familiar with. Deception by redefining perception through technicality or pure manipulation. "We didn't violate your borders with our spy ship, instead, due to a fault in our instrumentation we accidentally strayed into your territory with our technical research ship." "We're not invading another country, we're liberating it." "We're not torturing people, we're utilizing advanced interrogation techniques." "We didn't blow your ship and kill your crew, we blew up our own ship and your ship just happened to be caught in the blast." We destroyed their ship and murdered their crew. This is a hostile act.

The fact of the matter is, the extraterrestrial culture seemed to deem their actions reasonable. We may find their actions threatening or unacceptable, but they apparently wouldn't agree. In turn, they may deem our response threatening or unacceptable. Perhaps they place much more value in the lives of their people than we do, or perhaps they place much more value in their spacecraft than we. Their response may come in the form of apparent fury. They may choose to seek out and exterminate humanity in order to prevent us from causing any more harm in the future. Will you stand by your decision when it turns out we had only destroyed a small patrol ship, and now dozens of immense capital ships have entered our solar system, each armed with planet-buster or even star-buster weapons? They may "put us down" just as we might put down a pack of wolves after one of them attacked a resident within our town. You wished to show these aliens that we're not to be taken lightly, and it seems your point was well-taken.

originally posted by: Whatsthisthen a reply to: Navarro
Although we are only 4 light years from earth, we don't know definately that the aliens know about us and where we come from. We must keep that secret until proven otherwise.

We must maintain that secret, at all costs? On one hand, we might have prevented the aliens from attacking us, and on the other hand we will have definitely attacked them. Imagine that you're the alien commander of the ship conducting search and rescue operations after the ship we've destroyed went missing. You find the wreckage of your lost ship, and among it you find the wreckage of an unknown vessel. How will you interpret the situation? What recommendation would you make to your superior officers back home?

Perhaps they analyze the materials which once made up the hull and components of the Earth ship, and determine that the elements present uniquely match the spectroscopy data their scientists have gathered about our star. Perhaps they're able to detect a signature left by our propulsion system, leading them directly back to Earth. Maybe they already discovered humanity, but never made contact because they thought us too aggressive and dangerous to interact with. Maybe they're unable to determine anything about us and begin exploring the local region for clues, finding us at the next star over.

If I were the commander in charge of that SAR mission, I would estimate that we were either attacked and destroyed our attacker but our ship was also destroyed in the process, or, given that the only weapons signatures detected aren't our own, we are the victims of an interstellar suicide bombing. Either way, humanity is a serious threat, and they are our enemy. The only remaining question in my mind would be, "how do we respond?" That, presumably, will be a question my superiors will have to answer. Until that decision arrives, I can say with absolute certainty that I will attack on sight any humans I encounter. I can say with confidence that whatever our response, it will be well-formed and decisive. We, indeed, will not take these developing aggressors lightly.

originally posted by: Whatsthisthen a reply to: Navarro
In the senario you gave, the aliens acted in a manner that gave two choices. Be in control of one's own fate, or trust the aliens would be nice.

You propose two options. Either we commit an act of war against an unknown but likely superior species, or we allow the aliens to control the narrative for a chance at peaceful contact. I would absolutely choose the later.

originally posted by: Whatsthisthen a reply to: Navarro
I wouldn't go and meet the boarding party. That would be showing weakness. They boarded us without invitation. Make them come to us.

Do you mean to say that you're now willing to consider a diplomatic approach, and won't simply destroy your ship? If so, I think you'll find it difficult to convince them to submit to an escort to your position. How do you express "come with me" when you've not even yet begun the process of learning how to communicate with one another? If you're now willing to attempt to establish a dialogue with them, you would be much better off meeting them at the hatch.

originally posted by: Erno86 a reply to: Navarro
You're suggestion of using laser holography...in order to possibly communicate with these otherworlder star travelers, that occasionally visit our planet is a good idea; because we don't have to physically confront them with a chance at first contact.

What image would you project? What message would you communicate, and what image would communicate it?

originally posted by: Erno86 a reply to: Navarro
I've tried some primitive ways of trying to contact these space aliens...such as carvings in sandy cliff faces, chiseling messages in dead tree trunks that have fallen off the cliff, and written messages in waterproof bottles tied to hydro energy experiments; possibly performed by the otherworlders themselves.

You seem to be utilizing the same methodology that primitive humanity appeared to, and even methods that "recent" scientists used. They don't appear to have been very successful in establishing contact. What are these "hydro energy experiments" that you refer to, and why do you suspect that they're the creation of "offworlders?"

originally posted by: Erno86 a reply to: Navarro
These starfarers who have peaceably invaded our planet, have not made any attempts to takeover our planet.

That's a matter of debate. There's many who suggest that they've inserted themselves into positions of great power and influence. Some say that our governments take orders from them. Some say that our leaders are actually extraterrestrials in disguise. Some say that they were our ancient gods and their commandments shaped our development in a direction which they found desirable. There are many claims that they have conquered our planet, or are in the process of conquering our planet.

originally posted by: Erno86 a reply to: Navarro
With what looks like a magnetically contained fusion plasma shield surrounding the starship itself

What precisely does a "magnetically contained fusion plasma shield" look like, and how have you managed to determine it would look like that?

originally posted by: Erno86 a reply to: Navarro
that can not only be used as photon fuel for the possible photon drive

A photon drive would certainly be a very literal way of imagining light-speed propulsion.

originally posted by: Erno86
a reply to: Navarro

But also as a impenetrable defensive shield

How have you determined this shielding is impenetrable? Have you attempted to penetrate it by use of every tool the universe has to offer, and found that none were successful?

I don't mean for my response to seem harsh, but I think you should reevaluate the validity of your convictions.

a reply to: Erno86

Hey erno,

Do you think its possible the "ufo" that shot down that missile one time at vandenberg, or the instances where they hover over missile installations disrupting the launch systems were actually american craft testing their ability to do such things, and that we tested them out on our own systems first for evaluation before taking the show on the road?

You mention the possible vehicles were surrounded by magnetic field plasma fusion envelop. Why do you believe that it was "fusion plasma" instead of some other type of plasma. Do you think there would be other uses to surrounding a vehicle with plasma?

Do you know if there was a vehicle contained within said plasma? Could you see one physically inside or did you just see a glowing sphere of light?

Why do you feel a "photon drive" is the most likely scenerio for the vehicles propulsion, as opposed to other speculated methodologies proposed for propulsion?

What advantages do you feel a photon drive would be for use in interstellar travel? Do you feel a photon drive is fast enough or can circumvent special relativity s restriction on superluminal travel to be truly useful for getting around the stars in a functional manner?

Have you explored other proposed advanced propulsion concepts, and if so, which ones do you like as possible alternatives to your photon drive? Why do you reject those other propulsion propositions, if you do?

How do you know their weapon systems or capabilities?

How do you know their plasma envelope that contains the vessel is impenetrable?

Are you possitive those foo fighters you saw were non human in origen? Are you certain the foo fighters may have not been actual solid vehicles?

Are you willing to engage in a conversation discussing alternative theories as to what you witnessed, or alternative propulsion and vehicle concepts that may fit better with your onservations.

Finally, if you are in contact with these space entities, you think you can arrange for them to take me on a trip with them, cause I could really use a pick me up these days.

a reply to: Navarro

In the scenario set out, we began with two ships nose to nose. i honestly think the only outcome was death.

The event began a lot earlier.

Let's call the two ships entities. We might meet a deep space lifeform. Spaceships too, are an organism if one thinks about it.

So two entities cross paths in deep space.

They can both choose to ignore each other, and may do so.

They can also choose to not ignore each other.

It is vitally important who makes the fiirst move. This is because responsibility for the outcome will rest on who makes the first move.

If one entity is already engaged in an activity, the other can choose to ignore and continue on it's way.

Let's say we wish to initiate a contact with the entity minding it's own business.

We stop and wait.

If no change in the other entity, they may not have noticed us.

So, we can then choose to be noticed or not noticed and simply observe.

If we choose to be noticed, we say; "look at me".

We may change the colour of our ship or become bright and dim or move in circles a few times.

If no change in the other entity, we can choose to continue to observe, or resume our path. Any other action is provocative because the other entity has chosen to ignore us.

If the other entity changes it's behavior when we say look at me interaction has resulted.

If the entity attacks; run, fight or do nothing are the choices. (Run and then fight are the choices I would make). We mnay survive to meet nicer aliens.

Note: our spaceship should not have forward facing armaments if we are of peaceful intent, better to fdace armaments to the rear. Better still would be to discard the preditor thinking design of front and back and go for inside/outside thinking.

If the entity does not interact by attacking, then the entity sees us and is open to friendly inteaction.

The next move belongs to our alien entity.

Hey Navarro, I have a question for you. This may sound very simplistic, but I think it is a very important question to understand if humanity is going to contact an alien civilisation.

The question is:

"Why do you want to make contact with an alien civilisation?"

The question can be rephrased:

"For what purpose do you want to make contact with an alien civilisation?

originally posted by: Navarro

originally posted by: Erno86 a reply to: Navarro
You're suggestion of using laser holography...in order to possibly communicate with these otherworlder star travelers, that occasionally visit our planet is a good idea; because we don't have to physically confront them with a chance at first contact.

What image would you project? What message would you communicate, and what image would communicate it?

originally posted by: Erno86 a reply to: Navarro
I've tried some primitive ways of trying to contact these space aliens...such as carvings in sandy cliff faces, chiseling messages in dead tree trunks that have fallen off the cliff, and written messages in waterproof bottles tied to hydro energy experiments; possibly performed by the otherworlders themselves.

You seem to be utilizing the same methodology that primitive humanity appeared to, and even methods that "recent" scientists used. They don't appear to have been very successful in establishing contact. What are these "hydro energy experiments" that you refer to, and why do you suspect that they're the creation of "offworlders?"

originally posted by: Erno86 a reply to: Navarro
These starfarers who have peaceably invaded our planet, have not made any attempts to takeover our planet.

That's a matter of debate. There's many who suggest that they've inserted themselves into positions of great power and influence. Some say that our governments take orders from them. Some say that our leaders are actually extraterrestrials in disguise. Some say that they were our ancient gods and their commandments shaped our development in a direction which they found desirable. There are many claims that they have conquered our planet, or are in the process of conquering our planet.

originally posted by: Erno86 a reply to: Navarro
With what looks like a magnetically contained fusion plasma shield surrounding the starship itself

What precisely does a "magnetically contained fusion plasma shield" look like, and how have you managed to determine it would look like that?

originally posted by: Erno86 a reply to: Navarro
that can not only be used as photon fuel for the possible photon drive

A photon drive would certainly be a very literal way of imagining light-speed propulsion.

originally posted by: Erno86
a reply to: Navarro

But also as a impenetrable defensive shield

How have you determined this shielding is impenetrable? Have you attempted to penetrate it by use of every tool the universe has to offer, and found that none were successful?

I don't mean for my response to seem harsh, but I think you should reevaluate the validity of your convictions.

What holographic image would I project?

I would try to project an image of there religious deity, or some kind of biblical event from there holy book --- They've done roughly the same to me --- With a possible laser holographic projection of the biblical story Jonah and the Whale, at Calvert Cliffs, Maryland in the summer of 1972 --- Since religious themes are probably the easiest ways of communicating with an indigenous populations --- That is...if they're religious. Otherwise...Welcome to Earth, would be most satisfactory.

The otherworlders [at Calvert Cliffs] possibly carve geoglyphs in the cliff face --- sometimes carvings of a likeness of themselves --- I respond in kind...for example - Welcome to Earth.

I referring to primitive hydro wave experiments on the isolated beach at Calvert Cliffs, that utilize ropes, driftwood and derelict old wooden ship planks, that pivot on stationary & moving stone boulders in response to wave action.

The magnetically contained plasma shield --- literally --- looks like a miniature star or sun....approx. 700 feet in diameter --- Which was my ballpark estimate of one of my two Foo Fighter eyewitness sightings, one night in November of 1976, approx. 40 miles west of Washington D.C.

Hey...if the plasma shield would be penetrable --- they probably would not even to attempt to visit our planet --- IMHO --- Yet they have --- And my only deduction in the response to that ---They [starfarers] have conquered the speed of light barrier, with a starship that is capable of travelling in the superluminal realm.

originally posted by: Bedlam
a reply to: Navarro

At our stage of development, the best reaction to meeting a new species is to run to a known safe world and never go home again. Or execute secret plan B and cause the engines to destroy the ship in a very thorough and permanent manner.

You have no idea what capabilities any random alien species might have. If they are lethally aggressive and deceptive, going home could destroy the world. Better not to give them any leads.

I think a read a "Berserker" short story just like that. I can't remember if htye were Berserker or not. The humans were in a ship with near light speed capacity--I believe. They had left Earth to visit another world. They encountered a superior foe while enroute. (removed)

Ahh, I found it."What makes us human" by Stephen R. Donaldson. I will link it below. Forgive me if somehow I'm not supposed to. I just googled now and saw this link and thoguht 'Maybe some wants to read."
www.e-reading.club - WHAT MAKES US HUMAN - Stephen Donaldson