Charlotte Observer: Girls must overcome ‘discomfort’ of seeing ‘male genitalia’ in locker ro

originally posted by: Gryphon66

People have been fighting for trans* rights for a very long time in the United States and across the world.

Thanks for bringing that Into the conversation.

I was concerned about stating this recent bathroom Paranoia was started in an elementary school.

That the full history of transgender equality would be dismissed. I think most people are aware of Christine Jorgensen, but consider it an isolated case.

a reply to: halfoldman

The way I read this specific OP is that a columnist argued that essentially pubescent girls must get over their discomfort of male genitalia in the locker-room.

Maybe you should read the op-ed in question instead.

The administration’s letter addresses that uneasiness head on, at least with regards to schools. The letter includes a 25-page attachment detailing “emerging practices” at U.S. districts that already are supporting transgender students. Along with policies on issues such as dress codes and transgender student records, the document provides examples of how districts address the privacy needs of all students in bathrooms and locker rooms.

www.charlotteobserver.com...=cpy

A friend of ours runs security at 3 Wal Marts and he's done Wednesday because he doesn't need the stress, He's already retired but was bored. he told us men are using all the restrooms so the women wait in line for the family one in the back of the store. Men get in it's line but it's a single and they are holding it forever or 2 men go in at once.

Business is falling fast

originally posted by: mikell

2 men go in at once.

That's probably a drug deal.

We see this at the single stalls at the beach all the time.

originally posted by: mikell
A friend of ours runs security at 3 Wal Marts and he's done Wednesday because he doesn't need the stress, He's already retired but was bored. he told us men are using all the restrooms so the women wait in line for the family one in the back of the store. Men get in it's line but it's a single and they are holding it forever or 2 men go in at once.

Business is falling fast

Walmart, I'm sure, is very concerned.

Anything in your local news about this calamity? Seems like there would be, given the hoo-raa over Target's screeching evangelicals.

a reply to: Phage

Well thanks, I only read the OP for this thread.

Even so, all those "solutions" aren't really safe, except maybe the third locker-room option.
Maybe there's no opportunists and predators until now, but there might be.
And if it's all so good, why mention visual discomfort?

Perhaps different things work in different countries, but at schools in SA, I doubt it would work at present.
It would lead to violence in places, I think.

But no matter what I think, good luck with the real conservative cultures.

Does anyone else find it ... odd that all these male predators were "just waiting" for this golden opportunity to take over the ladies' rooms?

That these predators had to this point had their terrible desires inhibited by the "Ladies Only" sign?

How absurd does the realistic example have to be here?

A sign has never deferred a predator.

A trans* lady in the next stall is not a threat to anyone.

This is not about safety, and if it is, it's a long time coming. (It's not.)

This is about "payback" for Obergefell, pure and simple.

Thank goodness for President Obama's Administration standing up against this ridiculous overreach on the part of NC!

a reply to: halfoldman

Perhaps different things work in different countries, but at schools in SA, I doubt it would work at present. It would lead to violence in places, I think.

There is that possibility here as well. There is and has been violence here over various aspects of civil rights.

Does that mean those rights should not be observed?

a reply to: Phage

I'm not sure they are "rights" here yet.
So far the rights only apply to males and females and that each should have a facility in the direct vicinity of another.

I don't think there's any right to allow somebody who is biologically and physically the opposite gender into a male or female locker-room.

I also don't think it's economically feasible here to do all those things, and create complete privacy in locker-rooms.

Maybe people wouldn't mind a third option where tansvestite students can use the facilities at certain times, or maybe use another stall or facility to change (perhaps a teacher's locker-room not being used at the time).

My solution would be that or a local vote on the matter.
But you'll never force something like this on a quasi-racial human rights ticket.
Except for some of the most liberal campuses perhaps (and that's a big perhaps) people will be up in arms.
And there have been transgender people for years.
Why suddenly make it so militant and divisive?

Adults, OK, a bit of a different story.
But teens are at a very sensitive stage.
As a male I was hardly comfortable in the men's locker-rooms, let alone somebody of the opposite gender in there.
It shouldn't be forced either way, because forced nudity between the genders is also human rights abuse.

a reply to: halfoldman

As a male I was hardly comfortable in the men's locker-rooms, let alone somebody of the opposite gender in there.

Which is why provisions for privacy for all students who desire it is a very good idea.

Medically speaking, the fact that some people have gender identities different from their biological sex is a fact.

It is also a legal fact that Federal law that prohibits sex discrimination also extends to gender identity issues.

It is extremely concerning to a Trans* person to have to use the "wrong" facility.

It costs nothing for everyone else to accept what has been the standard for years, i.e. that the genital status of the person in the stall next door is no one's business.

The reason this is an issue "now" is the discriminatory laws put in place in States like NC and MS, and the attempts to put similar laws in place in several States.

a reply to: Phage

I'm just picturing it as an issue in a locally already under-resourced school.
And there's already rape and abuse going on in many of our schools.

Ultimately here it would have to go to the Constitutional Court.

We're in a situation where 22 schools were just burnt down over a municipal and tribal dispute.

My point stands though that you're never going to force it on conservative cultures or religions. Have they tried this in one of the 57 Islamic countries and madrasas, where a man won't even shake a woman's hand?

I say again, good luck in trying to please everybody.
Basic education is a privilege, not a right.
It doesn't guarantee that you can do whatever you like.
(Which doesn't mean that I don't strongly suspect transgender sub-cultures have de facto been going on in some high schools for ever. At least some studies claim that being a "gay man" in some cultures is very trans-gender-based, compared to Western cultures, although maybe it's not quite the same as "transgender". In fact, what defines "transgender identity" could become quite a red herring.)

Afterwards, when you earn your own salary, then you can choose your own sport, gym, or locker-room.
That's also an argument that is pretty and uniformly fair.

a reply to: halfoldman

My point stands though that you're never going to force it on conservative cultures or religions.

I agree. At least, I agree that you can't force them to accept the idea.

I say again, good luck in trying to please everybody.

Obviously. That applies to just about everything, doesn't it?

It doesn't guarantee that you can do whatever you like.

Indeed. You can't beat people up because they are different from you, for example.

a reply to: halfoldman

Just a note, the discussion is about laws in the United States ... why are we talking about which countries/cultures would not accept "American" law in this context?

I just realized that's part of what's' confusing me in your posts.

a reply to: Phage

I'm not beating them up.
I want to prevent that.

But I always wanted to grow my hair and get a tattoo in school (and here we have uniforms and hair inspections still), but I also couldn't.

In my day it was worse, the schools were an off-shoot of the military, and there was caning and corporal punishment for any guy who didn't toe the line.
Your body belongs to the state as long as the state pays for you.
Otherwise go to private transsexual school.

originally posted by: halfoldman
a reply to: Phage

I'm not beating them up.

I want to prevent that.

By creating a 3rd class?

a reply to: halfoldman

I'm not beating them up. I want to prevent that.

That's pretty much the point being made here. You read the op-ed. Now read the documents linked within it.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Because I'm a member of ATS, and have a right to speak from my scenario.

Sometimes I think it's only relevant to my country, but at other instances I think it's relevant generally.

I let my fellow ATS members decide.

But that's me, and I'm a member.

originally posted by: halfoldman
a reply to: Gryphon66

Because I'm a member of ATS, and have a right to speak from my scenario.

Sometimes I think it's only relevant to my country, but at other instances I think it's relevant generally.

I let my fellow ATS members decide.

But that's me, and I'm a member.

No, don't mistake me, I wasn't challenging your right to post ... that's above my paygrade.

The topic HERE, however, is about two newspaper articles, one misrepresenting the other, in the United States.

The two articles/editorials are discussing a policy letter sent to US school districts by the Obama Administration.

It's not that you can't or shouldn't talk about other countries ... it's just ... not what this is about.

Besides that, your profile lists South Africa as your location, which is one of the most progressive nations on the African continent in regard to LGBT rights. Marriage equality since 2006, great constitutional protections ... etc.

So I'm also a bit confused as to why you find the topic so ... extraordinary? Perhaps?

a reply to: Annee

No, I'm not creating a third class.
I'm merely trying to find a compromise that could work.
Different doesn't mean third class.
But, you also need to respect the majority and their needs.
The transgender issue is not new, and they never needed special curtains before, so who is creating the "third class"'?