Are parent's more selfish now than previous generations?

originally posted by: pl3bscheese
a reply to: Aazadan

That's great, and when you see the failure that is our educational system, how would you suppose such a wonderful class would be correctly implemented?

Good intention, but I seriously doubt it would turn out well.

Failure of our educational system in what way? The last real metric of it is several years old at this point (but we get new metrics in Dec 2016 so 7 more months), but they suggested the US is split pretty heavily between high performing states and low performing states. Massachusetts and Connecticut for example were on par with the top 10 nations in the world for schooling while Florida was below some third world countries (these are the only 3 states such data is available for... until December).

Now, I have seen people in college who are functionally illiterate, and I've even seen people passed in college classes who didn't even know how to write their name. But I also haven't seen anything to indicate that those are more than outliers. There could be many explanations for this, the first is that our educational system really is failing but another explanation is that people keep raising the bar on what's considered educated, and those who don't measure up look less educated in comparison and another explanation is that failing schools are largely localized events due to (insert reason) and the country overall is doing quite well.

a reply to: Aazadan
No.. I wouldn't have and still don't want it. What works for one family might not work for my family and the same goes for the other way around. No two kids are the same. So a one size fits all parenting class wouldn't work. Besides for the basics of newborn parenting they do have classes for that. Most new parents have an opportunity to take this class while they are still pregnant.

My goal is to do my best. I make mistakes but it also lets my kids know I am just a person with flaws of my own. Just for kicks and giggles I will tell you a few things that work in my family...

Baby talk is a no go. I correct my older children when they speak to their little sister like this just as quickly as I correct another adult who does the same thing.

We have regular conversations about their interests. My oldest can get pretty deep at times and wildly imaginative at others. We also have conversations about my interests.

We follow the three strikes rule. Three times being told an action is unacceptable with no change earns a time out, then we change bed time to earlier, then we take away toys/video games/ tv time/ computer time with each following occurrence.

Mom or Dad only make one meal. Everyone eats it. If you don't like it you can either suffer through or go to bed.

We might pick on each other but no one else can. We are the living embodiment of the Bundys from "Married with Children" in this aspect. When one of us is sad the others will stop and give words of encouragement and hugs or a swift kick in the butt as needed. Yes my kids have knocked sense into me before too.

That is the briefest list I can give. I am sure other parents will read this and think I am not strict enough while others will think I am too harsh. For my family my rules work. My parenting style works for my kids. They know no matter what I love them. They also know (because I have told them) that it's not my job to be their friend. It's my job to parent them. We can be friends when they are older. I am their biggest ally in life.

a reply to: Aazadan

I know you really want to root for it, but it's very obvious that our educational system has been in decline for at least a generation now. We used to have the best and brightest and as a whole were ranked at or near the top. Now you have to pick it apart by state or district to find excellence.

Obviously, that means there's a clear decline.

a reply to: Mousygretchen

Part of it is that young parents feel the need to make their children's lives magical and special and above all social media worthy. I think it would be exhausting to be a parent today with all of that social pressure. For millennials it's all about the impression you make, even if it's pretty much fiction. For the record, from your idealized, selfless, and yet curiously (and somewhat paradoxically) self-aggrandizing description of your interactions with your baby sister, I'm going to guess that you are from that generation or pretty darn close to it. Cool story though.

a reply to: pl3bscheese

I tried to follow the "Common Core" way to do simple math that my kids are learning. For a problem like 50-29 it took my child a full three quarters of a page! Whatever happened to "go next door get ten more"?

The expectations for these kids is crazy. On a good night my 4th grader is doing homework for an hour. On a difficult homework night it has taken as much as three hours. I didn't even spend three hours on homework in high school let alone elementary.

Honestly I feel bad for them. Plus the school lunch is worse than prison food. Seriously I ate lunch with my kids and had what the school called a grilled cheese. I could have thrown that bread knocked someone out with it. It's god awful oil on stale bread.

a reply to: YachiruKusajishi

Homework, what's that? You mean that courseware you do while the teacher is incessantly repeating the same lesson to the few who remain to listen, still trying to grasp the concept?

I was barely even in class, they would throw me in the ISS box with a bunch of work I had missed for however many days prior, would plow through it and skip out to learn real-life lessons as a hoodlum (see prior post).

I dunno exactly how common-core works, but I always had my own way of coming to the root problem and answer, especially in mathematics. Never used scratch, or took notes, either.

originally posted by: YachiruKusajishi
a reply to: Aazadan
No.. I wouldn't have and still don't want it. What works for one family might not work for my family and the same goes for the other way around. No two kids are the same. So a one size fits all parenting class wouldn't work. Besides for the basics of newborn parenting they do have classes for that. Most new parents have an opportunity to take this class while they are still pregnant.

I don't know about that. People have varying interests, but the vast majority of people eventually respond the same way to the same stimuli, we're just as trainable as dogs are which has pretty much been simplified into a one size fits all approach, even though most people who have ever spent some time around dogs can tell you they all have different personalities, mannerisms, and so on. I suspect parenting classes would be more successful than you think.

originally posted by: pl3bscheese
a reply to: Aazadan

I know you really want to root for it, but it's very obvious that our educational system has been in decline for at least a generation now. We used to have the best and brightest and as a whole were ranked at or near the top. Now you have to pick it apart by state or district to find excellence.

Obviously, that means there's a clear decline.

I don't want to derail the thread, so this will be my last comment on the state of education (despite how badly I want to comment on common core), so if you want the last word on it feel free. If you look at PISA test scores (those same scores that are now several years old, and that we will be getting new scores in December), it's true that the US does rank something like 37th in the world. However, it's also true that after the top 8 or so there is a severe decline and that everyone between 9 and 50ish (I don't remember the exact number) is within 10% of each other before scores begin to quickly decline.

Is there room to improve? There sure is, but all indications are that as a nation our educational system is still quite well off.

originally posted by: redhorse
a reply to: Mousygretchen

Part of it is that young parents feel the need to make their children's lives magical and special and above all social media worthy. I think it would be exhausting to be a parent today with all of that social pressure. For millennials it's all about the impression you make, even if it's pretty much fiction. For the record, from your idealized, selfless, and yet curiously (and somewhat paradoxically) self-aggrandizing description of your interactions with your baby sister, I'm going to guess that you are from that generation or pretty darn close to it. Cool story though.

It's an interesting phenomena, most peoples lives are pretty boring, and most people are content with pretty boring lives... that's all they ever hope for really. Yet for some reason, people really like to suggest to others that their lives are more exciting. Social media plays a pretty big factor in this, but it's not the only factor. I'm sure you've known people, just as I have, that exaggerate everything in their lives in order to make it seem more exciting. Or the other way people do this is by creating a whole bunch of drama.

a reply to: Mousygretchen

actually, kids make life much harder, maybe not 10 times harder but much harder. the only upside to that is that it they make life 10 times harder then the rewards can be 20 times more than any other adventure you can take part in.

and you were a very good sister if you are giving an accurate assessment of your relationship with your sister. I was the youngest in my family and I remember mother, father, sister and brother all bickering over who would sit with me. the bickering stopped after my father died, they all went their own way and just left me there alone.

there are probably many things today that makes raising kids much harder then it was when I was a kid. many of my friends had aunts, grandmother, older cousins that could help out when needed. and in many small towns everyone knew who you belonged to and they did watch over you. they would also let your parents know if they caught you doing something they didn't think you should be doing. now, not only don't many parents have an extended family nearby, but there is very little community present, who cares what your kids are doing as long as they aren't bugging me! and in many homes their isn't even any father figure present. the mother is pretty much left to fend for herself, with maybe a few friends with not much more experience than her when it comes to parenting.

And, before anyone gets the idea that women viewed motherhood as perpetual happiness and joy, well, many of those mothers (as well as fathers) were popping momma's little helper to get through their days.

my guess is that all in all, the mothers of today aren't that different than the mother's of my time. the challenges might be different, but there was probably just as many back then that felt overwhelmed and overburdened.

I had a thought, and I'm going to run with it.

I think people are confusing scared & confused young parents blindly navigating parenthood with excessive stresses in life with genuine narcissists who don't give a f# about anyone but themselves.

HUGE difference between the two. Narcissists aren't new, neither are scared new parents. The difference is the social lens they used to be under was swapped out, and now it's both much more intense & more blurry, so the two are difficult to discern separately, thus the blanket assumption of more selfishness. Any failure or stumble, or matter how small, and any desire for oneself, no matter how benign overall, is seen as "YOU SACK OF S#, DON'T HAVE KIDS, MORON!"

Also, the internet (social media, especially) welcomes narcissism openly, so we see it under a spotlight on a pedestal anyway, everywhere. I think it's not that there's more selfish people out there, they're still out there like always. Now they're welcome left & right, and we can watch their train wrecks via posts and blogs and YT and whatnot. Their failures (that we ogle as schadenfreude entertainment) are transposed to the new parents who really do need a shoulder or helping hand, because only an idiot can't get it right the first time. Interwebs say so, and what the interwebs say is golden because group mentality.

Basically, we kinda did it to ourselves by excusing narcissistic behaviors online in the first place. We're essentially sabotaging ourselves -- and therefore innocent kids' outcomes -- for kicks.

a reply to: pl3bscheese
So I guess the point of your last paragraph.. People inherit good family units or they don't. Or something like that. I also grew up around "hood rat" kids. Theyre not exactly role models in my experience. And yeah theres a whole new generation of stay at home papa's as well now lol..

a reply to: Nyiah
Thank you for clarifying my post with big grown up words that I couldn't muster up and put together..

To all the parents on here: I sincerely apologize if I offended you. I apologize for not illustrating my point well enough and thinking it through like I should have. And for being a jack*** hypocrite whose never had children before. I'm not being facetious or sarcastic.

a reply to: Mousygretchen

It was a vast generalization, but yea... on large scales it appears to be holding true.

Not sure about the above poster talking about people being called "narcissists" for single acts of foolishness. There's shallow people who go this far, sure, but I'm talking about getting to know people and see just how self-absorbed, and horrible they are as parents. Maybe it's a kind of narcissist light, I don't much care for the label, but I do think it's horrible parenting and that it's increasing.

a reply to: pl3bscheese
It may be increasing as like an off shoot of general narcissism in society.. you could maybe say its increasing, but similar to the Trump voter. not a "majority" but a " large growing contingency".

a reply to: Mousygretchen

I certainly hope not, on both accounts.

The world is on information overload and hasn't adapt to technology ysr.

The world isn't easy it's 16 hours a day everyday non stop with no break and constant inundation from media and advertising effecting the subconscious mind.

The economy sucks for young people that's why social security has been in trouble and no one is buying houses anymore the system is putting stress's on people that we've never had to experience before.

Our technology is enslaving us not freeibg us

a reply to: Mousygretchen

Family life HAS changed in the past few generations, though. 60 years ago, mothers were homemakers, fathers were providers, dinners were eaten at the dinner table as a family, church on Sunday was the norm, and the traditional family values and structure were celebrated, not mocked.

Western society hosed itself over the past 60-70 years.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

or maybe it was more like, women were caste as homemakers, but I know for a fact many of them were working outside of the home.
men we caste as providers, although some just opted to walk away and not provide anything.
and families all gathered around the kitchen table at supper time, only I remember plenty of nights where we gathered watching dad cooking us strange dishes , that he learned how to cook during his navy days in WW2..... because mom was at work..
and speaking of that lovely war, and the men that came home from it, it kind of many of their perspectives. my father actually broke a tv when he came home and found us watching a war movie on it, such movies weren't allowed in the house. when I became interested in church and wanted to go, he handed me a bible to read. and when I got a little older he came right out and told me, religion was used as an excuse to treat the lower castes in india (where he was stationed in india during the war) so horribly, it was used as an excuse to round up jews and throw them into concentration camps, and, all too often it was used as an excuse to send young men to war... we never went to church.

and the traditional family values and structure were celebrated, not mocked.

ya they were.

a reply to: dawnstar

You grew up very different from the way my parents were raised.

In previous generations, society existed to benefit breeders, and that was assumed to be the default social category. This is no longer the case.

Car seats are an example. The government demands that you have every child under 12 in a car seat. Many small cars will not hold more than one "baby bucket" in the backseat; the shell is larger than a human, and so fills up more than 1/2 of a 'two-butt' back seat. And some people have three or more kids(!) But minivans and big SUV's are evil. The government doesn't want you to drive them. So you will be punished with more fees in many places. And that's if you are rich. The poor just aren't supposed to take their kids anywhere fun.

Advertizing is another example.
It used to be that TV was required to be non-offensive/frightening to children. Nowadays, TV advertizes for "The Walking Dead" during afternoons and evenings. Likewise, there are gory shows on before 7pm., on broadcast TV. Shockjocks can cuss on radio. THE FCC ruled that any parent who is offended, should keep their kids away from the airwaves. Seriously. And billboards. There are billboards in my part of the world that advertise "gentlemen's clubs" featuring rear views of women in thong bikinis (i.e., naked.) The current assumption is that IF---IF--- a parent doesn't want their kids to see that, they should keep them home.

Waiting rooms.
The DMV assumes that you don't have a kid with you in the waiting line. "Sir, children are not allowed in here."


No strollers allowed.
"Because it isn't safe." They said the store aisles aren't wide enough for a stroller. I told them that if it wasn't wide enough for a stroller, then it wasn't wide enough for a wheel-chair; and thus violates fire codes as well as the americans with disabilities acts. They said they made an exception for wheel-chairs. "Well this" I said, point to my child, "is a disabled person--he can't walk! And this--" I said, pointing to the stroller, "Is a chair, with wheels. IT'S A WHEEL CHAIR!!!" So they called the cops.

You can come up with your own examples.

Kids haven't changed, but parenting has. The village now no longer helps raise the child.