Intelligent Design vs. Free Will

a reply to: TerryDon79

"Formless" would seem to imply non-existent...but I realize that's from the perspective of materialism, which I don't wish to debate here.

However, the sticking point for me is the assumption that it is possible to be everywhere and nowhere at the same time.

I'm sorry, but I'm not buying "God works in mysterious ways" as a viable explanation for this paradox.

a reply to: Inarismessenger

Mike Heiser has done some good and interesting work on the unseen realm .God and gods can be parsed and he has done a great job using simple language and give a simple understanding as a good starting point ,on what might be going on behind the scene of this dimension .

originally posted by: polyath
a reply to: TerryDon79

"Formless" would seem to imply non-existent...but I realize that's from the perspective of materialism, which I don't wish to debate here.

That just proves my point that you can't understand a form of no matter.

However, the sticking point for me is the assumption that it is possible to be everywhere and nowhere at the same time.

But you can't prove otherwise.

I'm sorry, but I'm not buying "God works in mysterious ways" as a viable explanation for this paradox.

I never said that either. But it's only a paradox if you try and equate human understandings to a God we know nothing about. Who says God thinks, feels, looks, acts, interacts and so on, the way that humans do?

a reply to: polyath

However, the sticking point for me is the assumption that it is possible to be everywhere and nowhere at the same time.

Hasnt some work been done with quantum particles that shows it can be any where at the same time ?

When it comes to bull#, big-time, major league bull#, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bull# story ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bull# story. Holy #!

But I want you to know something, this is sincere, I want you to know, when it comes to believing in God, I really tried. I really, really tried. I tried to believe that there is a God, who created each of us in His own image and likeness, loves us very much, and keeps a close eye on things. I really tried to believe that, but I gotta tell you, the longer you live, the more you look around, the more you realize, something is #ed up.

Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed. Results like these do not belong on the résumé of a Supreme Being. This is the kind of # you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude. And just between you and me, in any decently-run universe, this guy would've been out on his all-powerful ass a long time ago. And by the way, I say "this guy", because I firmly believe, looking at these results, that if there is a God, it has to be a man.

No woman could or would ever # things up like this. So, if there is a God, I think most reasonable people might agree that he's at least incompetent, and maybe, just maybe, doesn't give a #. Doesn't give a #, which I admire in a person, and which would explain a lot of these bad results.

So rather than be just another mindless religious robot, mindlessly and aimlessly and blindly believing that all of this is in the hands of some spooky incompetent father figure who doesn't give a #, I decided to look around for something else to worship. Something I could really count on.

And immediately, I thought of the sun. Happened like that. Overnight I became a sun-worshipper. Well, not overnight, you can't see the sun at night. But first thing the next morning, I became a sun-worshipper. Several reasons. First of all, I can see the sun, okay? Unlike some other gods I could mention, I can actually see the sun. I'm big on that. If I can see something, I don't know, it kind of helps the credibility along, you know? So everyday I can see the sun, as it gives me everything I need; heat, light, food, flowers in the park, reflections on the lake, an occasional skin cancer, but hey. At least there are no crucifixions, and we're not setting people on fire simply because they don't agree with us.

Sun worship is fairly simple. There's no mystery, no miracles, no pageantry, no one asks for money, there are no songs to learn, and we don't have a special building where we all gather once a week to compare clothing. And the best thing about the sun, it never tells me I'm unworthy. Doesn't tell me I'm a bad person who needs to be saved. Hasn't said an unkind word. Treats me fine. So, I worship the sun. But, I don't pray to the sun. Know why? I wouldn't presume on our friendship. It's not polite.

I've often thought people treat God rather rudely, don't you? Asking trillions and trillions of prayers every day. Asking and pleading and begging for favors. Do this, gimme that, I need a new car, I want a better job. And most of this praying takes place on Sunday His day off. It's not nice. And it's no way to treat a friend.

But people do pray, and they pray for a lot of different things, you know, your sister needs an operation on her crotch, your brother was arrested for defecating in a mall. But most of all, you'd really like to # that hot little redhead down at the convenience store. You know, the one with the eyepatch and the clubfoot? Can you pray for that? I think you'd have to. And I say, fine. Pray for anything you want. Pray for anything, but what about the Divine Plan? Remember that? The Divine Plan. Long time ago, God made a Divine Plan. Gave it a lot of thought, decided it was a good plan, put it into practice. And for billions and billions of years, the Divine Plan has been doing just fine. Now, you come along, and pray for something. Well suppose the thing you want isn't in God's Divine Plan? What do you want Him to do? Change His plan? Just for you? Doesn't it seem a little arrogant? It's a Divine Plan. What's the use of being God if every run-down shmuck with a two-dollar prayerbook can come along and # up Your Plan? And here's something else, another problem you might have: Suppose your prayers aren't answered. What do you say? "Well, it's God's will." "Thy Will Be Done." Fine, but if it's God's will, and He's going to do what He wants to anyway, why the # bother praying in the first place? Seems like a big waste of time to me! Couldn't you just skip the praying part and go right to His Will? It's all very confusing.

So to get around a lot of this, I decided to worship the sun. But, as I said, I don't pray to the sun. You know who I pray to? Joe Pesci. Two reasons: First of all, I think he's a good actor, okay? To me, that counts. Second, he looks like a guy who can get things done. Joe Pesci doesn't # around. In fact, Joe Pesci came through on a couple of things that God was having trouble with.

For years I asked God to do something about my noisy neighbor with the barking dog, Joe Pesci straightened that cocksucker out with one visit. It's amazing what you can accomplish with a simple baseball bat.

So I've been praying to Joe for about a year now. And I noticed something. I noticed that all the prayers I used to offer to God, and all the prayers I now offer to Joe Pesci, are being answered at about the same 50% rate. Half the time I get what I want, half the time I don't. Same as God, 50-50. Same as the four-leaf clover and the horseshoe, the wishing well and the rabbit's foot, same as the Mojo Man, same as the Voodoo Lady who tells you your fortune by squeezing the goat's testicles, it's all the same: 50-50. So just pick your superstition, sit back, make a wish, and enjoy yourself.

And for those of you who look to The Bible for moral lessons and literary qualities, I might suggest a couple of other stories for you. You might want to look at the Three Little Pigs, that's a good one. Has a nice happy ending, I'm sure you'll like that. Then there's Little Red Riding Hood, although it does have that X-rated part where the Big Bad Wolf actually eats the grandmother. Which I didn't care for, by the way. And finally, I've always drawn a great deal of moral comfort from Humpty Dumpty. The part I like the best? "All the king's ho

a reply to: truthseeker84

Ra was the Egyptian Sun god and he made demands on the people that worshipped him .en.wikipedia.org... No escape eh ....oh well the three little pigs story had a happy ending .

originally posted by: polyath
a reply to: Inarismessenger

Maybe we are defining "interacting" differently.


If you stand on the floor, would you say your feet are interacting with the floor? I would - so when I apply that thinking to omnipresence, it follows that interaction always occurs.

It's possible that we are. I think I might be able to follow what you are trying to convey though.

Since the definition of things interacting have to have a reciprocating relationship then, in essence, the floor would not be touching the feet but was made for the purpose to be walked upon. Furthermore if your feet are attached to your body as you lie down and thus your body is the thing physically touching the space [the floor] but not your feet, they could still be interacting in a way...through your body.

Not sure if I'm making any sense, I have plenty of things distracting me.

There is plenty of confusion here with the approach but that's what words like to do. Maybe you can clear some of it up for most of us to understand your point a little better. As you said words tend to limit the concept of God.



Edit:
Just realized that I must have read your post wrong. Like I said too many distractions :p

I agree that if standing, then yes definitely your feet and also the floor would be interacting. Not sure why I was thinking laying. I must be tired 😫

a reply to: Inarismessenger

Then it should follow that if something is everywhere it is interacting with everything - and thus my point about omnipresence implying interaction. Just as your foot cannot be upon the floor without interaction, so too is it illogical to think that something can be everywhere, yet interact with nothing.

originally posted by: polyath
a reply to: Inarismessenger

Then it should follow that if something is everywhere it is interacting with everything - and thus my point about omnipresence implying interaction. Just as your foot cannot be upon the floor without interaction, so too is it illogical to think that something can be everywhere, yet interact with nothing.

That's putting human limitations on a divine being that you know nothing about.

Tell me this and provide proof....
What is God made of?
What does God think?

If you can't answer them and provide proof, you can't possibly know that gods omnipresence interacts with anything or know if God would want interact with anything.

a reply to: polyath


That's what I assumed you meant but it is still hard to grasp within our knowledge and reasoning of how things are, on the surface at least.

Thanks for clarifying a little. I'll be back once I digest my food 😋 and when I can stop confusing this thread with another.

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: Inarismessenger

Mike Heiser has done some good and interesting work on the unseen realm .God and gods can be parsed and he has done a great job using simple language and give a simple understanding as a good starting point ,on what might be going on behind the scene of this dimension .

Thanks, I'll have to search for it. Usually I prefer to do my "own" thinking but another perspective is always nice.

Think of a parents children (ant farm, what?)
A parent gives them every opportunity, feeds them, nurtures them, loves them ( loving parents) teaches them how they should live in community
When the child gets to a certain age, the child makes its own way, the child is given and takes responsibility for itself.

You suggest the Christian God is a production line manufacturer, look at the diversity of people and their thoughts

What if God created, knowing that to truly have children, they must learn and grow individually of Him, have free will, be themselves not auto bots.

What if God created and then gave as a free gift to humanity the world, the chance to be as Gods, unique and individual.

Soverinty and omniscience is a great question, how can a God that knows everything, not know the outcome when clearly prophecy teaches He does
If God knows everything already, then He has created people to die because he knows what they will do before judgement
The question is, what if God chooses, for want of a better word, to forget

Imagine a wealthy man gives his child a fortune, knowing full well the child will waste it all, end up destitute and broke

God is sovereign, He seems to have chosen to surrender for a time His soverinty so we may experience the nature of free will, mistakes, life

Your question seems flawed, you ask how can we be intelligently designed and have free will, the real question is how can we be intelligently designed and not have free will

a reply to: Raggedyman

Your question has already been answered. So answer the OP question.

a reply to: Raggedyman

What if God creates a person, knowing He will be banishing that person to eternal torment in Hell?

a reply to: polyath

What if God creates a person, knowing He will be banishing that person to eternal torment in Hell?

Not a answer to your question but what if God is outside of the time He created and has no beginning and no end and so He just knows and doesn't have to wait for anyone to make a decision . Every time you put a law that acts on this world on the Creator God you may be selling Him short ...

originally posted by: polyath
Hello, if out of the thousands of threads on this site this is already been discussed, feel free to link me and delete this thread...

But for the meantime...

A recent thread about intelligent design got me thinking. If intelligent design were true, it would mean that free will does not exist. Before delving a little into the implications of that, I'll put forth why free will couldn't exist.

In intelligent design, there is a conscious creative force (God, Vishnu, whatever) that knows everything that will happen. Indeed, everything happens the way it was designed. One may have the freedom to choose, but can only ever act according to the plan. For example...let's say you want to grab just 2 skittles from a bag - if the design states that you will eat the whole bag, then that is what you will do.

So, what does it mean if there is no free will and that all of our thoughts and actions are ultimately beyond our control?

Actually, a lot.

First of all, it would mean that all the murders, rapes, robberies, drug addictions, etc. are all inevitable. We could also stop saying prison is place of rehabilitation or punishment - and simply call it a place of protection. But then - protection from what? If person X is ordained to die from intelligent design, it doesn't matter who is or isn't in prison.

This also calls into question the whole notion of sin and heaven/hell. If intelligent design is real and we do not have a choice in anything, then it follows that the creator intended for some people to suffer in Hell.

Now, I realize that not everyone believes in predeterminism. However, if you believe in intelligent design - then you must also believe in predeterminism.

Is there a way out of this or are we all doomed to hope we weren't the ones destined to Hell?

Of course there is. Realize that the universe wasn't designed, but that when there are infinite possible scenarios - our configuration was bound to happen sometime.

Thoughts?

Well, since the outcome is only known by God, in your premise, it doesn't affect anything here on earth, right?

Besides, being ID created does not equate with having a pre-programed will.

Jesus died for the every one's sins. There is redemption with the one true God.

And it blows my mind to think I am a pink unicorn wizard in one of the universes and a warrior octopus king in another!

Wow, what people won't come up with, to refuse to acknowledge a God.

originally posted by: polyath
a reply to: Raggedyman

What if God creates a person, knowing He will be banishing that person to eternal torment in Hell?

It would suck to be that guy.

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: polyath

What if God creates a person, knowing He will be banishing that person to eternal torment in Hell?

Not a answer to your question but what if a pixie is outside of the time He created and has no beginning and no end and so He just knows and doesn't have to wait for anyone to make a decision . Every time you put a law you are describing reality...

a reply to: MarsIsRed

Is there only one reality to all that might exist or is there different realities for different places ?