Intelligent Design vs. Free Will

Hello, if out of the thousands of threads on this site this is already been discussed, feel free to link me and delete this thread...

But for the meantime...

A recent thread about intelligent design got me thinking. If intelligent design were true, it would mean that free will does not exist. Before delving a little into the implications of that, I'll put forth why free will couldn't exist.

In intelligent design, there is a conscious creative force (God, Vishnu, whatever) that knows everything that will happen. Indeed, everything happens the way it was designed. One may have the freedom to choose, but can only ever act according to the plan. For example...let's say you want to grab just 2 skittles from a bag - if the design states that you will eat the whole bag, then that is what you will do.

So, what does it mean if there is no free will and that all of our thoughts and actions are ultimately beyond our control?

Actually, a lot.

First of all, it would mean that all the murders, rapes, robberies, drug addictions, etc. are all inevitable. We could also stop saying prison is place of rehabilitation or punishment - and simply call it a place of protection. But then - protection from what? If person X is ordained to die from intelligent design, it doesn't matter who is or isn't in prison.

This also calls into question the whole notion of sin and heaven/hell. If intelligent design is real and we do not have a choice in anything, then it follows that the creator intended for some people to suffer in Hell.

Now, I realize that not everyone believes in predeterminism. However, if you believe in intelligent design - then you must also believe in predeterminism.

Is there a way out of this or are we all doomed to hope we weren't the ones destined to Hell?

Of course there is. Realize that the universe wasn't designed, but that when there are infinite possible scenarios - our configuration was bound to happen sometime.

Thoughts?

originally posted by: polyath
Hello, if out of the thousands of threads on this site this is already been discussed, feel free to link me and delete this thread...

But for the meantime...

A recent thread about intelligent design got me thinking. If intelligent design were true, it would mean that free will does not exist. Before delving a little into the implications of that, I'll put forth why free will couldn't exist.

In intelligent design, there is a conscious creative force (God, Vishnu, whatever) that knows everything that will happen. Indeed, everything happens the way it was designed. One may have the freedom to choose, but can only ever act according to the plan. For example...let's say you want to grab just 2 skittles from a bag - if the design states that you will eat the whole bag, then that is what you will do.

So, what does it mean if there is no free will and that all of our thoughts and actions are ultimately beyond our control?

Actually, a lot.

First of all, it would mean that all the murders, rapes, robberies, drug addictions, etc. are all inevitable. We could also stop saying prison is place of rehabilitation or punishment - and simply call it a place of protection. But then - protection from what? If person X is ordained to die from intelligent design, it doesn't matter who is or isn't in prison.

This also calls into question the whole notion of sin and heaven/hell. If intelligent design is real and we do not have a choice in anything, then it follows that the creator intended for some people to suffer in Hell.

Now, I realize that not everyone believes in predeterminism. However, if you believe in intelligent design - then you must also believe in predeterminism.

Is there a way out of this or are we all doomed to hope we weren't the ones destined to Hell?

Of course there is. Realize that the universe wasn't designed, but that when there are infinite possible scenarios - our configuration was bound to happen sometime.

Thoughts?

...you arent the only one who notices these gaping plot holes. schoolbuses are falling in.

originally posted by: polyath
Now, I realize that not everyone believes in predeterminism. However, if you believe in intelligent design - then you must also believe in predeterminism.

Why? What about a scenario with a 'hands off' creator?

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: polyath
Now, I realize that not everyone believes in predeterminism. However, if you believe in intelligent design - then you must also believe in predeterminism.

Why? What about a scenario with a 'hands off' creator?

'hands off' creator just wedges open that margin of plausible deniability. like telling an orphan they have 'hands off' parents. its dumb and its cruel.

originally posted by: TzarChasm
'hands off' creator just wedges open that margin of plausible deniability. like telling an orphan they have 'hands off' parents. its dumb and its cruel.

But one does not necessarily require the other. The universe could be 'designed' and its inhabitants still have free will. It only means the parameters have been set ('programmed') from the outset. The inhabitants are free to interact with each other and their surroundings without external influence.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: polyath
Now, I realize that not everyone believes in predeterminism. However, if you believe in intelligent design - then you must also believe in predeterminism.

Why? What about a scenario with a 'hands off' creator?

If everything is designed by the creator, that does not simply mean one things was started and everything else took care of itself. That would be more in line with notions of a creator what kickstarted everything. With intelligent design, whether or not the creator takes a continuing active role - everything has already been decided.

originally posted by: polyath
With intelligent design, whether or not the creator takes a continuing active role - everything has already been decided.

Sorry, I just gave you a scenario where that ultimatum does not apply.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: TzarChasm
'hands off' creator just wedges open that margin of plausible deniability. like telling an orphan they have 'hands off' parents. its dumb and its cruel.

But one does not necessarily require the other. The universe could be 'designed' and its inhabitants still have free will. It only means the parameters have been set ('programmed') from the outset. The inhabitants are free to interact with each other and their surroundings without external influence.

"Intelligently designed" means everything has been planned. If accidents are allowed to occur, then intelligent design hasn't occurred. If there are no accidents - then there is no choice.

originally posted by: polyath
"Intelligently designed" means everything has been planned.

No, it does not. It only means that an outside influence is agency for the creation of life.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Sorry, I just gave you a scenario where that ultimatum does not apply.

You didn't give a scenario involving intelligent design.

Your argument is akin to this hypothetical discussion:

A: Broccoli is delicious!
B. No it isn't, because oranges are delicious!

originally posted by: polyath

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: TzarChasm
'hands off' creator just wedges open that margin of plausible deniability. like telling an orphan they have 'hands off' parents. its dumb and its cruel.

But one does not necessarily require the other. The universe could be 'designed' and its inhabitants still have free will. It only means the parameters have been set ('programmed') from the outset. The inhabitants are free to interact with each other and their surroundings without external influence.

"Intelligently designed" means everything has been planned. If accidents are allowed to occur, then intelligent design hasn't occurred. If there are no accidents - then there is no choice.

Well, not exactly.

You can have intelligent design AND accidents.

Good example: bricks

Bricks are intelligently designed. After that it's up to the person to use them properly. If they don't, accidents can happen.

If there's a God (I don't know if there is or isn't), whose to say that it didn't just create the "bricks" and left it to just do its thing?

originally posted by: polyath
You didn't give a scenario involving intelligent design.

I did, you are just being too obtuse to pay attention.

An outside agency can set the parameters of the universe (how it functions) and leave it alone from that point forward. Similar to how someone can program a simulation and allow it to run and interact without outside influence.

I do not know how to make this any simpler for you to understand.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: polyath
"Intelligently designed" means everything has been planned.

No, it does not. It only means that an outside influence is agency for the creation of life.

I honestly don't mean this rudely, but what part of "design" are you not understanding? We aren't talking about a theory called "conscious creation."

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: polyath
You didn't give a scenario involving intelligent design.

I did, you are just being to obtuse to pay attention.

An outside agency can set the parameters of the universe (how it functions) and leave it alone from that point forward. Similar to how someone can program a simulation and allow it to run and interact without outside influence.

I do not know how to make this any simpler for you to understand.

That's basically what I said with my bricks idea.

Are you copying me?

originally posted by: polyath
I honestly don't mean this rudely, but what part of "design" are you not understanding? We aren't talking about a theory called "conscious creation."

If I design an impartial simulation and allow it to run is the outcome predetermined?

a reply to: TerryDon79

If God simply created everything and let it all do its own thing - then that isn't intelligent design any more than when a person throws paint on a wall to create a random pattern.

Now, I'm not saying there isn't a God who did what you described. Just that that would not be "intelligent design."

a reply to: TerryDon79

Sorry, just typing to fast too the Original Poster's replies to see yours but it is indeed what I am getting at.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: TzarChasm
'hands off' creator just wedges open that margin of plausible deniability. like telling an orphan they have 'hands off' parents. its dumb and its cruel.

But one does not necessarily require the other. The universe could be 'designed' and its inhabitants still have free will. It only means the parameters have been set ('programmed') from the outset. The inhabitants are free to interact with each other and their surroundings without external influence.

what is the point of setting a universe in motion just to ignore it?

originally posted by: polyath
a reply to: TerryDon79

If God simply created everything and let it all do its own thing - then that isn't intelligent design any more than when a person throws paint on a wall to create a random pattern.

Now, I'm not saying there isn't a God who did what you described. Just that that would not be "intelligent design."

Of course it is.

Bricks are intelligently designed.

If an outside randomness (hurricane or something similar) moves them about they can create a rudimentary structure or create nothing at all.

originally posted by: TzarChasm
what is the point of setting a universe in motion just to ignore it?

No idea, fun? But it does afford a scenario which runs counter to what the Original Poster is claiming as necessary.