So NJ troopers arrest woman for remaining silent, where's Miranda?

originally posted by: Liquesence
What's the point in rights if we willing give them up simply for convenience?

And when some people give them up it then becomes expected for all to give them up. As evidenced by the video.

a reply to: SRPrime

Such a long post.

Didn't I make the observation that the cops overstepped their authority? I thought I did.

originally posted by: mysterioustranger
a reply to: UnBreakable

Somethings not clear here....was she or wasn't she mirandized?

Ya, after she was cuffed and put into the car. After she was cuffed for remaining silent, she was arrested and then read her rights she could remain silent.

The troopers placed her in the back of the car and Stazzoneread Musarra her Miranda rights —€” including "you have a right to remain silent" — before taking her to the nearby State Police barracks in Washington.

originally posted by: grey580

Just because you have a right doesn't mean you have to be a jerk about it.

Im not sure you're understanding what a "right" is.

Its something that is inalienable. Perhaps the officers question is what was a bit rude? Perhaps a better answer to his question would be, "Whether I know or not is immaterial to what you will do about it, officer". Which is a true statement, and which shows that he had no need to ask it to begin with.

Maybe she's rude, maybe she's not. It should have no bearing on the officers behavior, as professionals. And professionals they damned well better be, since they are given an authority to carry and use a firearm and other forms of force

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

I understand and still believe in my statement.

We should all strive to be courteous and professional to each other. Something that was sorely lacking by both sides in that video.

And in another post I stated that I think he overstepped his authority in arresting her.

I never said the cop in the right here. Only that her behavior escalated the situation.

a reply to: UnBreakable

Middle Eastern woman (some) wont even roll down the window when pulled over here in Dearborn Michigan. They arent supposed to talk to men (some M.E. cultures, not a majority) without a male family member present. Ive seen them call someone at home...come to the scene and make the officer wait until a male gets there to roll the window down and talk to them.*

*I do monthly citizen ride alongs at times. I see some odd things for sure including my job in Emergency Transport....

One young lady wouldnt go forward into a one lane diversion....because of a police car ahead. She called her husband at work...30 mins later he came, talked to her...and led her with his car around the officer into the clear lane.

At times, it can be anything....thats why I thought something was off Im guessing...

Thanks for the reply

originally posted by: grey580
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

I understand and still believe in my statement.

We should all strive to be courteous and professional to each other. Something that was sorely lacking by both sides in that video.

And in another post I stated that I think he overstepped his authority in arresting her.

I never said the cop in the right here. Only that her behavior escalated the situation.

While we maybe should strive to be courteous, etc....your post seems to be more like victim blaming.

Just because she is discourteous is no justification for police to suspend your rights. They are the ones in the wrong, not her...even if she is a flaming asshole. Being unsympathetic doesn't seem to justify victim blaming.

She should have clearly stated that she was enacting her right to remain silent... just not saying anything at all probably gives the police a loophole of suspicious behavior.

It's BS... but still, I think its far less likely she would have been arrested if she made her motivation for not answering the cops questions clear from the beginning and just politely answered 'no comment' to any further questions.

If a suspect has not yet been Mirandized:

In a closely contested 2013 decision, the United States Supreme Court held that prosecutors can, under appropriate circumstances, point to an out-of-custody suspect’s silence in response to police questioning as evidence of guilt. (Salinas v. Texas, 133 S. Ct. 2174 (2013).) According to the Court, the prosecution can comment on the silence of a suspect who:

is out of police custody (and not Mirandized)
voluntarily submits to police questioning, and
stays silent without expressly invoking his Fifth Amendment rights.
The only way to prevent the government from introducing evidence at trial of the suspect’s silence is to explicitly invoke the right to say nothing. In other words, without being warned by the police or advised by a lawyer, and without even the benefit of the familiar Miranda warnings (which might trigger a “I want to invoke my right to be silent!”), the interviewee must apparently say words to the effect of, “I invoke my privilege against self-incrimination.”

Source

She did not voluntarily submit to police questioning, so is not required to actually invoke her right.

Beyond that, some pointers from the ACLU

a reply to: Bluntone22

but you don't have to answer.

Yea, don't try that in Texas, you either cooperate or you go to jail. The motto is, "You may beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride".

Of course, this is just fly over country anyway so nobody complains because nobody would care.

originally posted by: grey580
a reply to: UnBreakable

After watching the video I will comment with the following.

The lady was being a jerk and she escalated the situation for no reason.

I've been pulled over by the cops before. And I treat the cop the same way I would like to be treated.

WOW! What a concept right?

Usually the cop doesn't give me a hard time. They tell me to get whatever fixed. And I'm on my way again.

Now did these cops overstep their authority? Probably.

Will she spank them in court? More than likely.

Could she have avoided this whole situation entirely by not being rude? Absolutely.

one of my best friends is a retired NYC detective. He told me years ago how to deal with traffic stops. I don't always get pulled over , but when I do, I always get a warning.

I haven't gotten a ticket in many years, and I deserved it so I just paid it

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

While we maybe should strive to be courteous, etc....your post seems to be more like victim blaming.

Just because she is discourteous is no justification for police to suspend your rights. They are the ones in the wrong, not her...even if she is a flaming asshole. Being unsympathetic doesn't seem to justify victim blaming.

I guess from my perspective I see things differently.

Does it excuse the police? No, of course not. Never said it did.

The police obviously acted in an unprofessional manner.

She will get her day in court and will win a bunch of money.

a reply to: grey580

Oh, i get your perspective i think.

Im not one to want to make a big deal out of things, and prefer to suck it up for the sake of convenience. But i hvae my limits.

As a taxpayer, however, i would hope that officers would realize that there are attorneys out there just waiting to haul them into court over civil rights issues.

I have always responded to the officer's first question, 'I have no idea why!?' He usually then tells me why I was pulled over. I then act surprised or slightly frustrated at my stupidity.

Why be antagonistic from the start? Some issues, are just a warning. Some tickets, I have waived by showing proof that I did register my tags in a timely matter but it was delayed via the mail for some reason and forgotten. Didn't go to court, the friendly officer just told me to take my proof when I pay the ticket and it would be waived. It was.

Have I paid tickets, of course. I was speeding with the rest of traffic but was the one to get pulled over! Sucks, but it is a law, and I was busted. Pay the fine and get on with life. Difference between rights and responsibilities, especially when you know you were speeding. Sure I try to talk my way out of a ticket, but never do I try to talk down to an officer just doing his job!

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

I agree. We should definitely have our limits to what we should tolerate from our civil servants.

And I wish there was a mechanism where we could seriously spank those civil servants when they get out of hand.

Unfortunately the only one we have is the courts. Which sucks because we the tax payer foot the bill.

originally posted by: grey580
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan
Unfortunately the only one we have is the courts. Which sucks because we the tax payer foot the bill.

That's what it comes down to in a capitalist society though, ain't it?

Unless you've got a whole lot of spare money and time, its usually far easier to just say "yes officer" and "no officer", then be allowed to drive home without incident... I personally had to learn that frame of logic the hard way.

Being stubbornly passionate about your rights is all well and good, but in reality, it rarely ends up being a comfortable and carefree experience where you end up on top... lol.

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa
That's what it comes down to in a capitalist society though, ain't it?

What does that have to do with capitalism? Police services are socialized and bourn by the local taxpayer out of property/state income taxes.

An officer asking why one is pulled over seems to be a way to get a person to admit wrong doing. The officer could simply tell the person why.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa
That's what it comes down to in a capitalist society though, ain't it?

What does that have to do with capitalism? Police services are socialized and bourn by the local taxpayer out of property/state income taxes.

Some of my cousins once got caught by the police for blowing up letterboxes with fireworks... there millionaire lawyer father went to the station to pick them up and they left with nothing but a full apology from the red faced arresting officers.

I once literally got my face slammed into the concrete by 3 cops, for doing nothing more than daring to walk down the street at 3am in the morning and refusing to empty my pockets, since they had no 'probable cause'... I didn't get any apology when they didn't find anything on me either, just the experience of being assaulted by 3 arseholes for no good reason, who knew I had no means of retaliation.

That's the reality of a capitalist society!

originally posted by: FaunaOrFlora

originally posted by: Liquesence
What's the point in rights if we willing give them up simply for convenience?

And when some people give them up it then becomes expected for all to give them up. As evidenced by the video.

Indeed.

Many authorities get used to willful compliance, and many are unable to professionally handle situations when people stand by their rights.