Everyone is agnostic

Agnostic is more or less the opposite of gnostic, though not necessarily A Gnostic, just the word gnostic.

Agnostic means simply, I don't know. You don't know if there is a God but are not ruling it out either. You just don't know.

Which is the most honest approach one can take because none of us actually know if God exists, or if there are multiple gods. We know only what mythology tells us. History is silent.

Science offers no proof either way of God. Everything is faith. And trust in humans to accurately report unbelievable events.

But since agnostic literally means to not know, by definition when it comes to God we are all agnostic. I think religion is the search for gnosis and spirituality is experimenting with different paths handed down from the ancients and combining them with our own knowledge and experience. Just to get a glimpse of God's shadow.

A noble pursuit for sure. I wish it weren't such an us versus them world where only one team has the truth and everyone is on the right team even though the teams are sometimes opposed. How is this possible?

Because we are wired to think we are special. We know the truth, God wouldn't let ME be on the wrong team. If I were wrong God would send me a message. We don't think about different parts of the world and their rich traditions as brothers and sisters in God if they are not of our religion. Even though we don't know God personally and don't know how he has dealt with other cultures or what influences they may have had on our own.

But since everybody can all agree that nobody actually knows a thing about God that can be said to be a fact or knowledge of God:

Everyone is agnostic.

Might as well make it a religion and get tax exempt status.

a reply to: CapstonePendulum

Agnostic means simply, I don't know. You don't know if there is a God but are not ruling it out either. You just don't know.

I don't know about that…

lol, just kidding. You know, not one single picture of God exists where he doesn't appear stylized in human form.

Even a religious text says…

Genesis 1:26: Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;"

Or some such.

Another tale grown in the telling.

"My god is bigger than yours."

"Oh yah, well my God is soooo big…"

And what if one does know?

Delusional? Lying?

I think you write off those who know as being one of the two, because you can't stand the fact that someone might be experiencing something you're incapable of accepting or even understanding.

a reply to: CapstonePendulum

Yes, if you want to ignore how the word is actually used and be a literalist, you are absolutely correct. It's also true to say that we are all dying - something I hope insurance companies don't catch on to, as everyone would then have a pre-existing condition.

a reply to: NthOther

Nobody does know. Nobody has met God. That makes everyone literally agnostic.

So you know God? Or anyone who has met God? God is unknowable.

You are 100% correct with the statement, however, people tend to reside on one side of the garden fence, ignoring their doubts whilst trying to reaffirm their belief in what they believe is true/what they have been told to be true.

People will try to tell you they have experienced god, but that is them attributing the weird experience to god. Very few will try to find all possible explaination before assuming divine intervention.

It's also difficult on ATS as everyone "knows what they know"
I know there is a god. I know god doesn't exist. The only thing we do know is it is impossible to prove. The problems lies with people unwilling to acknowledge the fact they don't know, who lack the desire to find (the impossible) truth, but deny themselves the opportunity to find other truths, whether it be spiritualism etc etc because they KNOW.

If everyone acknowledged this fact there would be minimal religious hatred.

a reply to: intrptr

Even the bible has my god is better than your god type arguments when it comes to the spoils of war taken by the Israelites and the request of its return.

The reply is something like, " You keep what your god gives you, so we are keeping what our god has given us."

a reply to: GemmyMcGemJew

The term "know" is one that is used to mean "strong belief."

I drank some water about an hour ago. Do you know I drank water? You could say "yes" - because I told you.

Better yet, do I know i drank water? I'm convinced that what I was drinking was water, but maybe I was hallucinating.

Nothing can ever be known in the literal sense. However, not everything need be interpreted literally.

Sure, everyone is an agnostic when we interpret "knowing" literally. However, when we realize that "know" is usually used to mean "strongly believe" - then we realize that no, not everyone is agnostic. Some people "know" God exists in the sense that for them, there is no doubt in His existence.

a reply to: NthOther

Also I can't write off "those who know" because they don't know. So those who know don't exist. Or they aren't talking.

Delusional people do exist. And so do liars. And not all spiritual or religious people are either. Some are both, or one or the other.

Most religious people are not delusional. Same goes for the spiritual. Most are not liars.

But a great deal of the leadership of organized religion is controlled by liars. And they have plenty of delusional followers. It's sad.


Anybody who says they know God personally and speak with or for him is a liar or delusional. Prophecy requires proof, contact with God requires the same.

originally posted by: CapstonePendulum
a reply to: NthOther

Also I can't write off "those who know" because they don't know. So those who know don't exist. Or they aren't talking.

Delusional people do exist. And so do liars. And not all spiritual or religious people are either. Some are both, or one or the other.

Most religious people are not delusional. Same goes for the spiritual. Most are not liars.

But a great deal of the leadership of organized religion is controlled by liars. And they have plenty of delusional followers. It's sad.


Anybody who says they know God personally and speak with or for him is a liar or delusional. Prophecy requires proof, contact with God requires the same.

Why would contact with God require proof? Could you prove every conversation you've ever had with anyone?

a reply to: CapstonePendulum
That is the problem with people on Ats, they have su
Bstituted the word believe with know. Becomes quite infuriating, especially when they have convinced themselves that believing is knowing.

a reply to: polyath
Proof sort of helps people believe what you saying to be true. A person with mental illnesses display near identical behaviours as those who believe they speak to god. Proof would help identify those that need medical assistance and those that are prophets.

a reply to: GemmyMcGemJew

I understand the reasons and benefits of having proof. However, when you say proof is required - that is something different. Not having proof that God exists does not mean He doesn't exist anymore than not having proof of a conversation does not mean the conversation never took place.

originally posted by: CapstonePendulum
Agnostic is more or less the opposite of gnostic, though not necessarily A Gnostic, just the word gnostic.

Agnostic means simply, I don't know. You don't know if there is a God but are not ruling it out either. You just don't know.

Which is the most honest approach one can take because none of us actually know if God exists, or if there are multiple gods. We know only what mythology tells us. History is silent.

Science offers no proof either way of God. Everything is faith. And trust in humans to accurately report unbelievable events.

But since agnostic literally means to not know, by definition when it comes to God we are all agnostic. I think religion is the search for gnosis and spirituality is experimenting with different paths handed down from the ancients and combining them with our own knowledge and experience. Just to get a glimpse of God's shadow.

A noble pursuit for sure. I wish it weren't such an us versus them world where only one team has the truth and everyone is on the right team even though the teams are sometimes opposed. How is this possible?

Because we are wired to think we are special. We know the truth, God wouldn't let ME be on the wrong team. If I were wrong God would send me a message. We don't think about different parts of the world and their rich traditions as brothers and sisters in God if they are not of our religion. Even though we don't know God personally and don't know how he has dealt with other cultures or what influences they may have had on our own.

But since everybody can all agree that nobody actually knows a thing about God that can be said to be a fact or knowledge of God:

Everyone is agnostic.

Might as well make it a religion and get tax exempt status.

Would people commit sin if THEY KNEW that heaven/hell was the consequence?

I wouldn't lol. I think that proves it all.

originally posted by: CapstonePendulum

Anybody who says they know God personally and speak with or for him is a liar or delusional. Prophecy requires proof, contact with God requires the same.

See. I knew that's what this would all boil down to.

You don't accept personal experience as evidence. Ok.

Just don't expect people to take you seriously when you insult them at the first sign of opposition.

a reply to: polyath
Proof is required if you want everyone to acknowledge his existence. It's not required if god is all you need in this world. Some people look for answers, others look for answers in questions.

a reply to: NthOther
Say someone had an experience with god after taking recreational drugs? Would you take that as evidence? Would you take it as more proof as an objective drug user over a subjective believer?

a reply to: GemmyMcGemJew

Define "proof."

a reply to: NthOther

Define personal experiences. Does this personal experience involve a face to face with God?

As far as knowing what all this would boil down to and you assuming that you know what my thoughts are that is just arrogant.

Don't be upset because God hasn't introduced himself to anyone. You can't do anything to change that. His plan obviously doesn't involve meeting him face to face in this life.

Personal spiritual experiences are not for me to say if they are genuine. Belief can be achieved. But nobody knows God.

a reply to: GemmyMcGemJew

Well spoken. The adherants of the Hindu faith define Hindu the same way the Greeks define religion:

The search for truth.

The mystical teachings of the eastern faiths that have been practiced for thousands of years are ignored by the Christian population as demonic.

But the core philosophy of enlightenment and the third eye, the wisdom of the serpent are all alluded to in the words of the Christ. Christos is a word originating in India used by Greeks and applied to the Jewish Messiah concept.

The search for truth has become the separation from any possibility of discovering it in the religion of Christianity.