Climate Change Denial, Anyone?

a reply to: TiredofControlFreaks

One cannot eat nor drink money.

For some reason you remind of the grasshopper in Aesop's The Ant and the Grasshopper.

Laugh away simple grasshopper while we still live in an age of excess.

a reply to: jrod

And for some reason, I am also reminded of Aesop's Fables

Chicken Little comes to mind as does the Boy Who Cried Wolf.

Tired of Control Freaks

a reply to: TiredofControlFreaks

Well - if people were smart they would throw in with the green movement - because there is going to be some serious money made on new products, new systems, new ways of doing everything

Energy, infrastructure, transportation, homes, food - all of it

It's not about feeling superior - but I can see that this is the way many of you that deny the science think. Ego is more important to you than survival - but in the end surviving is going to determine everything

Even ethics

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

Actually I completely agree with you. There are billions to be made in going green. And the hypocrites with the snouts deepest in the trough are AGW supporters.

I was an environmentalist when most of the them were in diapers. I strongly support environmentalism. However, creating carbon markets and running with the money when the market inevitably collapses does NOTHING for the environment.

Tired of Control Freaks

a reply to: TiredofControlFreaks

However, creating carbon markets and running with the money when the market inevitably collapses does NOTHING for the environment.

I know there's nothing I can say that's going to change your thinking. I don't even really feel like bothering with that anymore

What I do know is that your way of thinking doesn't matter in the end. It may be out of our hands. On the outside chance that we do still have the ability to affect the outcome of all this - drastic measures are in order

I'm going to end this conversation the way I usually do: I wish you were right - and I was wrong

Seriously

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

I don't mind simple ignorance, most people I talk to will eventually come around to the lesson berkley earth teaches us, whats really annoying is people who see science through a political lens its just so exasperating

they don't want a carbon tax, yet they are ignoring the cost of drought, famine and migration of americans

no matter who is president, you aren't getting a wall to keep the folks on the coast from coming inland

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

Yeah what do you want, humans are among the dumbest species living on this planet.
For example I believe we shouldn't be having this conversation in the first place and it has nothing to do with who or what is right or wrong, it just shows in what a #ed up world we live.
If all this shi-te will end up to change human culture and advance in our connection to nature I am all for it, but I highly doubt that will be the case, unfortunately.
I honestly would not mind that tomorrow a meteor will strike and wipe out 99.9% of the human race (off course I would be among the 0.1% survivors...not).
Even though I do not believe all the AGW theory and mass hysteria around it and believe it's only another fabrication to get power in some way, if it will change our nature than heck off course I don't care, I've had about enough of all these dumb people and their stupid occupations(including my own).

Though i've lived my life being close to nature(we try to be self sufficient by growing our own food and making our own tools, trying not to be depended on governments and other institutions, self educating our children,...)
but in the end it didn't bring us far because it's the politics that own our lives and politics,...well yeah their goals will never change.

It's not technology that make a species intelligent...

I will end here on a note from Mr Chesnutt's sponge, enjoy...

a reply to: syrinx high priest

I think it's bizarre that this is as political as it is

I think it's borderline terrifying how anti-intellectualism has made a villain out of science and anyone that supports it

Of course - science is just fine and dandy if you need a new kidney :-)

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

Don't even try to make this about science. Data sets that conveniently get "adjusted" as desired have NOTHING to do with science.

AGW is a political campaign complete with Madison Avenue advertising. Its about money, not science.

Science is not about "consensus". Science does not seek to silence debate or questions. Science faces its detractors in the cold clear light of reason. Science does not seek to corrupt the justice system.

Whatever AGW is - its not about science. Its not about the future of mankind and it sure as hell isn't about the children. Its about money, political careers and corruption.

Your sentimental musings are nothing more than mush! AGW is dead. The wheels are falling off the bus.

Its Lysenko science at its finest!

skepdic.com...

Under Lysenko's guidance, science was guided not by the most likely theories, backed by appropriately controlled experiments, but by the desired ideology. Science was practiced in the service of the State, or more precisely, in the service of ideology. The results were predictable: the steady deterioration of Soviet biology. Lysenko's methods were not condemned by the Soviet scientific community until 1965, more than a decade after Stalin's death.

Real climate scientists, like Judith Curry. She used to believe in AGW. Now she questions it. And she is being made to suffer for her reasonable and scientific approach.

Like Lysenkoism:

It was due to Lysenko's efforts that many real scientists, those who were geneticists or who rejected Lamarckism in favor of natural selection, were sent to the gulags or simply disappeared from the USSR. Lysenko rose to dominance at a 1948 conference in Russia where he delivered a passionate address denouncing Mendelian thought as "reactionary and decadent" and declared such thinkers to be "enemies of the Soviet people" (Gardner 1957). He also announced that his speech had been approved by the Central Committee of the Communist Party. Scientists either groveled, writing public letters confessing the errors of their way and the righteousness of the wisdom of the Party, or they were dismissed. Some were sent to labor camps. Some were never heard from again.

I will not be swayed from my opinion in the slightest by these emotional tear-jerking pleas and accusations that I don't care about the environment OR the children.

Did any of you care when children starved because food prices went up when agricultural land was converted to crops to create biofuels? Did any of you care that children starved so that you could put inefficient and polluting biofuels in your vehicles and slapped yourself on the back for your environmental "ethics".

Tired of Control Freaks

a reply to: TiredofControlFreaks

I will not be swayed from my opinion in the slightest by these emotional tear-jerking pleas and accusations that I don't care about the environment OR the children.

sigh...

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

During a warming event, like the one we are undergoing, CO2 levels increase naturally as well, and as for "acidification" some other members were talking about, you should know that warmer waters tend to change their ph levels.

Yes. Everything else being equal, warmer waters release CO2, raising pH. But what we see is warmer waters and lower pH. Something is not equal. That something is higher levels of atmospheric CO2. There is more available CO2 for the ocean to absorb.

Not to mention that corals that are near underwater volcanic vents the water ph level around those areas also changes "acidification".

Yes. And those corals are unique to those vents. There are algae which enjoy extremely hot waters. Does that mean that all algae does?

The warming capacity of CO2 has been exaggerated which is why the GCMs do so poorly, and why it hasn't gotten warmer...

It has gotten warmer.

a reply to: Phage

So, you tried to claim that the Earth's magnetic field is now stronger than it has been for the past 50,000 years... Obviously a failed attempt by you to use a graph I have shown in the past to try to poke holes in my argument. But it is obvious you didn't notice a few things about that graph...

First of all, that graph was used in a peer-reviewed research paper published on May 1999...
"Global changes in intensity of the Earth's magnetic field during the past 800 kyr
Yohan Guyodo and Jean-Pierre Valet
Nature 399, 249-252(20 May 1999)"

Second, you didn't seem to notice that the latest data point posted in that graph was...



Perhaps you can see this better using this graph.



Third, and not last, since the 1990s the Earth's magnetic field has been weakening more, and it's now weakening 10 times faster than it was doing during the 1990s...

Earth's Magnetic Field Is Weakening 10 Times Faster Now
By Kelly Dickerson, Staff Writer | July 8, 2014 11:29am ET

Earth's magnetic field, which protects the planet from huge blasts of deadly solar radiation, has been weakening over the past six months, according to data collected by a European Space Agency (ESA) satellite array called Swarm.

The biggest weak spots in the magnetic field — which extends 370,000 miles (600,000 kilometers) above the planet's surface — have sprung up over the Western Hemisphere, while the field has strengthened over areas like the southern Indian Ocean, according to the magnetometers onboard the Swarm satellites — three separate satellites floating in tandem.
...

www.livescience.com...

Silly Phage... lol...

Oh, and one more thing, there is also peer-reviewed research which shows that magnetic reversals have occurred in the past within a human lifetime, as in full reversals occurring within 100 years.

Earth's Magnetic Field Could Flip in Our Lifetime
By Kelly Dickerson, Staff Writer | October 17, 2014 01:20pm ET
...
A magnetic field shift is old news. Around 800,000 years ago, magnetic north hovered over Antarctica and reindeer lived in magnetic south. The poles have flipped several times throughout Earth's history. Scientists have estimated that a flip cycle starts with the magnetic field weakening over the span of a few thousand years, then the poles flip and the field springs back up to full strength again. However, a new study shows that the last time the Earth's poles flipped, it only took 100 years for the reversal to happen.

The Earth's magnetic field is in a weakening stage right now. Data collected this summer by a European Space Agency (ESA) satellite suggests the field is weakening 10 times faster than scientists originally thought. They predicted a flip could come within the next couple thousand years. It turns out that might be a very liberal estimate, scientists now say. [Infographic: Explore Earth's Atmosphere Top to Bottom]

"We don't know whether the next reversal will occur as suddenly as this [previous] one did, but we also don't know that it won't," Paul Renne, director of the Geochronology Center at the University of California, Berkeley, said in a statement.
...

www.livescience.com...

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Perhaps you can see this better using this graph.

That's the same graph.

Third, and not last, since the 1990s the Earth's magnetic field has been weakening more, and it's now weakening 10 times faster than it was doing during the 1990s...

So tell me, what is the current VADM value? Where would it appear on the chart? Lower than the value 50,000 years ago?

Oh, and one more thing, there is also peer-reviewed research which shows that magnetic reversals have occurred in the past within a human lifetime, as in full reversals occurring within 100 years.

Yeah. But.

According to this study, the estimated duration of the instability associated with the reversal precursor is about 2.5 ka, with a time lag of about 3 ka between the precursor and the directional transit phase (Fig. 11).

gji.oxfordjournals.org...

Since we are are not currently in a period of low field strength (are we?) it may be premature to suggest that a sudden flip is about to happen. If the current decline in field strength is a precursor, it would seem we have about 3,000 years to go. Based, that is, on the study to which you refer.

originally posted by: Phage
That's the same graph.

Yep, just posted the same graph without the circle, thought it might help you see better.

Here.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/2953bac6bcff.jpg[/atsimg]

originally posted by: Phage
So tell me, what is the current VADM value? Where would it appear on the chart? Lower than the value 50,000 years ago?

In areas like the Pacific the Earth's magnetic field strength is low enough that it caused El Niño to become a super El Niño.

originally posted by: Phage
Yeah. But.

According to this study, the estimated duration of the instability associated with the reversal precursor is about 2.5 ka, with a time lag of about 3 ka between the precursor and the directional transit phase (Fig. 11).

gji.oxfordjournals.org...

And Earth's magnetic field has been weakening since at least 1840s, we don't know if before that it was still in a transitional stage. The fact is such reversals can occur really fast, and a full reversal doesn't have to occur to affect the planet and most lifeforms.

originally posted by: Phage
Since we are are not currently in a period of low field strength (are we?) it may be premature to suggest that a sudden flip is about to happen. If the current decline in field strength is a precursor, it would seem we have about 3,000 years to go. Based, that is, on the study to which you refer.

Yes we are in a period of low field strength. The field strength doesn't weaken completely it starts weakening in some areas, then more and larger areas are affected until the Earth's core cannot sustain the polarity.

We have been in a period of a weaker magnetic field since at least the 1840s.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/img/ze57393a9a.jpg[/atsimg]

Does that help?...


And that was the strength of Earth's magnetic field in the 1990s. Now it is even weaker. A lot weaker. It is weakening 10 times faster.

Oh, and not to mention that this graph shows the Earth's magnetic field has been weakening for a few thousand years. If you look at the point with the most strength, and the point of least strength which was in the 1990s, it seems obvious a few thousand years have already passed. So the Earth's magnetic field has been in a transitional stage for thousands of years already.

You do know that El NIños affect global temperatures and "super El Niños" cause even more warming don't you?

Think El Niño is weird now? Just wait for this summer

EMAIL

BY Nsikan Akpan January 4, 2016 at 4:17 PM EDT
...
The U.S. started seeing major weather disruptions as early as last spring, Rippey said, when storms and floods ripped through Oklahoma and Texas. But recent events have surpassed temperature expectations and grown into what’s called a super El Niño. Though ENSOs happen every two to seven years, this current El Niño is only the third supersized version since 1950 and the first since 1998.
...

www.pbs.org...

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

In areas like the Pacific the Earth's magnetic field strength is low enough that it caused El Niño to become a super El Niño.

The entire Pacific? How do you know that the localized magnetic field has anything to do with El Nino?

And that was the strength of Earth's magnetic field in the 1990s. Now it is even weaker. A lot weaker.

How much weaker? What is the current VABM? Is it less than it was 50,000 years ago? Was I wrong when I said that?

So the Earth's magnetic field has been in a transitional stage for thousands of years already.

What transitional stage are you talking about? The return to average?

Last, although the geomagnetic field intensity is known to be dropping at a rapid rate of ∼10% for nearly the past two centuries (25) with suggestions that a collapse of the field and a magnetic polarity reversal may be on the horizon (26), the present-day geomagnetic field may simply be decreasing from an anomalously high historical value compared with the average paleointensity over the past few million years.

www.researchgate.net... ities_from_Galapagos_lavas

You do know that El NIños affect global temperatures and "super El Niños" cause even more warming don't you?

Yes, I do know that. Because they release heat which has been stored in the oceans. Heat stored as a result of increased radiative forcing.

a reply to: Phage

An extremely brief reversal of the geomagnetic field, climate variability and a super volcano
October 16, 2012

41,000 years ago, a complete and rapid reversal of the geomagnetic field occured. Magnetic studies of the GFZ German Research Centre for Geosciences on sediment cores from the Black Sea show that during this period, during the last ice age, a compass at the Black Sea would have pointed to the south instead of north. Moreover, data obtained by the research team formed around GFZ researchers Dr. Norbert Nowaczyk and Prof. Helge Arz, together with additional data from other studies in the North Atlantic, the South Pacific and Hawaii, prove that this polarity reversal was a global event. Their results are published in the latest issue of the scientific journal Earth and Planetary Science Letters.

What is remarkable is the speed of the reversal: "The field geometry of reversed polarity, with field lines pointing into the opposite direction when compared to today's configuration, lasted for only about 440 years, and it was associated with a field strength that was only one quarter of today's field," explains Norbert Nowaczyk. "The actual polarity changes lasted only 250 years. In terms of geological time scales, that is very fast." During this period, the field was even weaker, with only 5% of today's field strength. As a consequence, the Earth nearly completely lost its protection shield against hard cosmic rays, leading to a significantly increased radiation exposure.
...

phys.org...

Remember what is happening right now Phage?... Global earthquakes have been increasing, the Earth's magnetic field has been weakening more and more and making sudden changes, and climate change has been occurring all together, same thing as has happened in the past Phage.

More and more earthquakes occurring, and the Earth's magnetic field weakening point to the fact that the Earth's core is changing dramatically, which also causes changes in climate and weather.

That's not mentioning the changes occurring to the Sun Phage.

Here is a graph showing the weakening of the solar polar fields.



wso.stanford.edu...

What is happening to Earth is happening in the entire solar system, it is not CO2 causing these changes.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse
That article was discussed a while back. It's very interesting but not really very conclusive as far as what you're claiming goes. www.abovetopsecret.com...

Evidence does indicate that there was a brief reversal (actually referred to as an "excursion" of the polarity of the magnetic field) as far climate and volcanoes, that would seem to be a question of correlation and causation, wouldn't it?

Remember what is happening right now Phage?... Global earthquakes have been increasing,

No. No matter how often you say it, the evidence does not show you are correct.

More and more earthquakes occurring,

No.

and the Earth's magnetic field weakening point to the fact that the Earth's core is changing dramatically,

Dramatically? I'm not so sure. It would seem that it wouldn't take much of a change to affect the Earth's magnetic field, which really isn't all that strong at it's strongest.

which also causes changes in climate and weather.

By what mechanism?