Race and gender equality is a lie

a reply to: odzeandennz

“Proposed Interagency Policy Statement Establishing Joint Standards for Assessing the Diversity Policies and Practices of Entities Regulated by the Agencies and Request for Comment.

Oh look new laws where it is federally mandated. Wonderful!

www.washingtonexaminer.com...

this is a one sided affair then. i take your point. i can google too.

but,
youre already convinced. this is moot.

cheers.

keep denying and being fair.


reply to: onequestion

a reply to: odzeandennz

It is biased for everyone the point is to figure out how to move to a merit based paradigm and away from racial and gender based biased which is the entire point of the Thread.

I M trying to problem solve.

a reply to: amazing

To claim that are exactly the same is crazy isnt if?

Men and women's minds are even designed differently.

I mean women make for better mothers than father's right?

Is there reason why the archetypes exist ?

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: amazing

To claim that are exactly the same is crazy isnt if?

Men and women's minds are even designed differently.

I mean women make for better mothers than father's right?

Is there reason why the archetypes exist ?

I agree. There is a reason the archetypes exist and they are different. But equal in a sense that both can do just as well of a job. A man can be a great boss and a woman can be equally as great. Although there may be different styles and nuances in the way that they manage. A man can be a great programmer and a woman can be a great programmer. Although, they way they go about managing and working on and coding a project can and probably will be different. The end result will be equally good, just different. A man can be a great cook and a woman can be a great cook. Although, they way they navigate the kitchen and work will be different. The resulting dishes will be equally delicious.

Do you see why I said they were equal? Just different.

a reply to: amazing

Can a woman be a great father and a man be a great mother?

I agree with most of your points I just think men and women are hard wired for different roles. None of those roles less valuable than the other.

a reply to: onequestion

Race and gender equality is a lie

The Constitution of the United States would disagree.

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: amazing

Can a woman be a great father and a man be a great mother?

I agree with most of your points I just think men and women are hard wired for different roles. None of those roles less valuable than the other.

Yes to both, it happens every day.

Maybe equal isn't the word you're looking for or I'm looking for.

I mean equal in the way that things work out in the end. The man and women's dishes will be just as equally delicious. The man and woman's team will be managed just as equally for a superior year end result. The man and woman will equal each other in total sales revenue. The man and woman's movies will do equally well at the box office. The man and women's TV show will be equally well received. The man and woman's book will win an equal ammount of awards.

The differences don't make us any less equal.

I am not saying this is right, but my realistic way of seeing the world. I hire a 22 YO male and female, they both do a great job for my company for a few years and are making the same wages. At 28 the female makes the decision to have a child, and receives 6 months maternity leave, she make the same decision at 32, and 36. At 40, she is making less money than he is because she has worked for my company for 18 months less than he has, and I have paid 18 months of maternity leave.

I am not saying this is right, but might explain some of the gender disparity in wages.

a reply to: amazing

Well of course I can agree with that.

a reply to: BubbaJoe

Hmmm that's a tough one.

Never thought about that...

I mean from a strictly numbers and risk based assessment I can see why but from a moral standpoint that can be questionable.

originally posted by: BubbaJoe
I am not saying this is right, but my realistic way of seeing the world. I hire a 22 YO male and female, they both do a great job for my company for a few years and are making the same wages. At 28 the female makes the decision to have a child, and receives 6 months maternity leave, she make the same decision at 32, and 36. At 40, she is making less money than he is because she has worked for my company for 18 months less than he has, and I have paid 18 months of maternity leave.

I am not saying this is right, but might explain some of the gender disparity in wages.

Some but not all. Many companies just pay less, even to a woman who already has grown kids and isn't planning any more and who does the exact same work or better than her male counterparts. I would never pay a woman less for the same job, not sure why some men thing it's okay to do the same? Weird.

originally posted by: amazing

originally posted by: BubbaJoe
I am not saying this is right, but my realistic way of seeing the world. I hire a 22 YO male and female, they both do a great job for my company for a few years and are making the same wages. At 28 the female makes the decision to have a child, and receives 6 months maternity leave, she make the same decision at 32, and 36. At 40, she is making less money than he is because she has worked for my company for 18 months less than he has, and I have paid 18 months of maternity leave.

I am not saying this is right, but might explain some of the gender disparity in wages.

Some but not all. Many companies just pay less, even to a woman who already has grown kids and isn't planning any more and who does the exact same work or better than her male counterparts. I would never pay a woman less for the same job, not sure why some men thing it's okay to do the same? Weird.

I don't think it is right, but my explanation might be a part of it. I hire a male and female at 40, providing they have the same credentials, they get paid the same. Same with hiring White, Black, Hispanic, everyone is paid by their credentials.

At 40, it gets a bit trickier, I have a white male with a college education, a black or hispanic male with no college, but hands on experience. Who is the team leader, and who among them has the most knowledge. Many would automatically give it to the white guy with college.

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: BubbaJoe

Hmmm that's a tough one.

Never thought about that...

I mean from a strictly numbers and risk based assessment I can see why but from a moral standpoint that can be questionable.

I agree, and would agree that it is questionable. I am a pretty smart guy, but don't have the answers to the most difficult questions. All I can do is to live my life, take care of my responsibilities, and treat everyone as equal as I can.

a reply to: onequestion

After everything you've said it doesn't change the fact that gender and race aren't the real problem the real problem is a system of merit based opportunities.

Nothing changes.

The only difference is the perceived cause of which I agreen in some companies there may be bias but that's besides the point.

If we move closer to a merit based paradigm all issues will be solved.

I'd say that nearly everyone believes that employment opportunity should be based on merit. You say that you realize that in "some" professions opportunity is not based on merit but that the "answer" is to "[focus] on a merit based system." You say that as though there is an alternate employment paradigm just waiting to be put into use that is being ignored because of positive discrimination practices.

The first thing you should realize is that the lack of opportunity in employment runs in a sort of feedback loop:

- There's the issue of bias in hiring executives: people are more likely to hire people they want to see succeed, people they like and those they identify with. For example, start with the assumption that men have a bias toward hiring other men. If men are more likely to hire men and those men that are hired are in turn more likely to hire other men, this results in a loop.

- There's the issue of qualifications. Qualifications include such things as education and experience. Education isn't free. The majority of primary school education is funded by local and state taxes. In most areas, local property tax revenue accounts for somewhere around half of the funding. Here, the cycle is that poorly educated people get lower paying employment, pay less taxes which fund substandard schools churning out poorly educated people who will get lower paying employment and pay less taxes, and so on. The same is true of higher education and degrees are more important today than ever. People who go to college are more likely to get better paying jobs, live in better neighborhoods with better primary schools and have children who are more likely to get better primary school educations, more likely to get into colleges and who come from families that are more likely to be able to afford to pay part or all of tuition. In turn, those children will start families of their own and their children will also have this advantage.

Positive discrimination schemes are/were only ever supposed to be temporary measures to promote the change toward the result that you, I and most people want. The purpose is essentially to jumpstart the process by getting more people who have been subject to historical discrimination into jobs, into better paying jobs and particularly into jobs where they're responsible for hiring.

What most people don't understand is that aside from voluntary corporate policies — with and without the pressure from the fear of losing discrimination lawsuits — positive discrimination has only been put into practice through affirmative action style initiatives involving quotas and these only apply in the private sector when it comes to government contracts. In other words, if you want to be a government contractor, you have to meet government standards.

How much of employment do you think that actually applies to? It's not nearly as large as you're probably thinking, a fact that limits it's effectiveness but on the other hand, if it were a practice that was more pervasive and therefore more effective, you'd be that much more upset by it I suspect.

If you have an actual solution that is different from positive discrimination, I'd love to hear it otherwise you're just ranting and making making vague criticisms in the absence of alternatives.

a reply to: theantediluvian

OK we can't solve any problems let's just give up.

a reply to: theantediluvian

Will not quote your entire post, but it is right on. Back in 1978 and 1979 I applied for an apprenticeship program in the local electrical union, that my father was a member of. As I am a white male, I was not accepted, got over it, joined the military, enjoyed that time, and got on with my life.

It is small world, as I have actually met a few of the minorities that beat me out for that apprenticeship through affirmative action. The acceptance into that apprenticeship program has allowed them to live a nice middle class life, and some have done well. Being a white male, I have done well too, I do not hold that affirmative action against them in anyway. After 150 years of systemic discrimination in this country, it is nice to see some positive things happening.

a reply to: amazing

men and women are equal only if we agree they are, which i am ok with, otherwise break down the dna and physical attributes and we are not, women are stronger in some ways and men are stronger in some ways, so on paper NO we are not equal never will be.

but if we are able to put aside are petty differences and embrace each each others strengths we would be unstoppable. It is the idea we are ALL equal is what holds us back

btw i am ok with equal opprotunuty and rights but i will never accept the fact we are equal

originally posted by: DOCHOLIDAZE1
a reply to: amazing

men and women are equal only if we agree they are, which i am ok with, otherwise break down the dna and physical attributes and we are not, women are stronger in some ways and men are stronger in some ways, so on paper NO we are not equal never will be.

but if we are able to put aside are petty differences and embrace each each others strengths we would be unstoppable. It is the idea we are ALL equal is what holds us back

btw i am ok with equal opprotunuty and rights but i will never accept the fact we are equal

Doc we are equal because our Constitution tells us we are. I agree that each individual has strengths and weaknesses.

originally posted by: Bluntone22
What would constitute merit?

So many things today are based on diversity "all hail diversity!" That nobody is playing by the same rules anymore.

I'd guess something like, if you have to get a job by virtue of your race or sex, instead of your qualifications, you don't merit the job. Maybe that's just me. Same for college admission, and whatever else.