Three 16th-Century Truth Seekers—What Did They Find?

When it comes to the possibilities of 'learning from history' there are doubtless many things we could aspire to learn.
Some of those would be more practically useful, but how to know what historical truths/facts matter most?

The following selection of famous quotations and quotes about ' learning from history ' begins with a few quotes in which several persons express some disillusionment about humanity's all-too-frequent failure at actually learning from history or the past mistakes of history.

But what experience and history teach is this - that people and governments never have learned anything from history, or acted on principles deduced from it. - G. W. F. Hegel

We learn from history that we learn nothing from history. - George Bernard Shaw

"Those that fail to learn from history, are doomed to repeat it." - Winston Churchill

Three 16th-Century Truth Seekers—What Did They Find?

“WHAT is truth?” That was the question that Pontius Pilate, Roman governor of Judea in the first century, asked of Jesus, who was on trial before the governor. (John 18:38) Pilate, of course, was not really seeking the truth. If anything, his question revealed his skeptical or cynical attitude. Apparently, to Pilate truth was whatever a person might choose or was taught to believe; there was really no way to determine what is truth. Many today feel the same way.

Churchgoers in 16th-century Europe faced the dilemma of what to believe as truth. Raised to believe in the supremacy of the pope and in other teachings of the church, they were confronted with new ideas spread by the Reformation, which was sweeping through Europe at the time. What should they believe? How would they decide what is truth?

During that period, there were, among many others, three men who were determined to seek out the truth. How did they go about identifying what was true and what was false? And what did they find? Let us see.
...
Though some Reformers still promoted the Trinity doctrine, Capito’s writings, according to the book The Radical Reformation, reflect “reticence on the doctrine of the Trinity.” Why? Capito was impressed by the way that Spanish theologian Michael Servetus appealed to Bible texts to disprove the Trinity. (See the article Michael Servetus—A Solitary Quest for the Truth)
Denial of the Trinity could bring fatal consequences, so Capito was cautious about declaring his feelings openly. However, his writings suggest that he had privately questioned the Trinity doctrine even before he met Servetus. A Catholic priest later wrote that Capito and his associates “proceeded to discuss in their private capacity, and without appeal,—the profoundest mysteries of religion; [and] rejected that of the most Holy Trinity.” A century later, Capito was listed first among prominent anti-Trinitarian writers.
Capito believed that the Bible was the source of truth. “Let the Bible and the law of Christ always rule supreme in theology,” he stated. According to Dr. Kittelson, Capito “insisted that the chief failing of the scholastic theologians lay in their neglect of the Scriptures.”
...
Especially noteworthy were Cellarius’ brief remarks regarding the nature of Jesus Christ. Although he did not directly contradict the Trinity, Cellarius distinguished the “Heavenly Father” from “his Son Jesus Christ” and wrote that Jesus was one of many gods and sons of the almighty God.—John 10:34, 35.

In his book Antitrinitarian Biography (1850), Robert Wallace noted that Cellarius’ writings did not follow the Trinitarian orthodoxy common in the 16th century. Regarding Cellarius’ use of the word “god” when applied to Christ, the book states: “It is printed deus, and not Deus, the latter being used only to designate the Supreme God.” Several scholars thus conclude that Cellarius must have rejected the Trinity. He has been described as one of God’s instruments “in inculcating a knowledge of the true God and of Christ.”
...
In about 1527, Wittenberg also became home to theologian Johannes Campanus, considered to be one of the greatest scholars of his day. Although at the center of religious reform, Campanus became dissatisfied with the teachings of Martin Luther. Why?

Campanus objected to the ideas of both transubstantiation and consubstantiation. According to author André Séguenny, Campanus believed that “the Bread as a substance remains always bread, but as a sacrament, it represents symbolically the flesh of the Christ.” At the 1529 Marburg Colloquy, a meeting held to discuss these very questions, Campanus was not permitted to share what he had learned from the Scriptures. Thereafter, he was shunned by his fellow Reformers in Wittenberg.

The Reformers were especially upset by Campanus’ beliefs about the Father, the Son, and the holy spirit. In his 1532 book Restitution, Campanus taught that Jesus and his Father are two distinct persons. The Father and Son “are one,” he explained, only as a husband and wife are said to be “one flesh”—united, yet still two persons. (John 10:30; Matthew 19:5) Campanus noted that the Scriptures use the same illustration to show that the Father has authority over the Son: “The head of a woman is the man; in turn, the head of the Christ is God.”—1 Corinthians 11:3.

What about the holy spirit? Again, Campanus appealed to the Bible, writing: “With no Scripture may it be adduced that the Holy Spirit is the third person . . . The spirit of God is taken in an operative sense, in that He prepares and carries out all things through his spiritual power and activity.”—Genesis 1:2.

Luther called Campanus a blasphemer and an adversary of God’s Son. Another Reformer called for Campanus’ execution.
...
The apostle Paul urged his fellow Christians: “Make sure of all things; hold fast to what is fine.” (1 Thessalonians 5:21) To help you in your search for truth,...

And this comment for further links to connections, evidence and things related to the above historical truths/facts.

There is so much fraud in everything that clergy touches.

I wonder if the actual timeline of history is close to what we were taught, or if it was perverted to align with the OT & NT.

There are some good articles that say the whole Scaliger chronology of history is a perversion.

I am still trying to make my way through 'History: Fiction or Science' by Fomenko. Free PDF online if anyone is interested.

Fun times we live in. Maybe the truth will become known.

Capito believed that the Bible was the source of truth. “Let the Bible and the law of Christ always rule supreme in theology,” he stated. According to Dr. Kittelson, Capito “insisted that the chief failing of the scholastic theologians lay in their neglect of the Scriptures.”

Quite the opposite actually. Using the bible as a foundation for all truth is the best way to assure a lack of the very thing you seek.
And most certainly coming at the truth from a JW perspective compounds the problem. The JW are frauds and false prophets, pronounced so by the book they claim to follow.

a reply to: Klassified

Yep. A huge history of failed prophecies going back 150 years. Also I see the OP posted two videos of the devil. There is zero evidence of that being.

I have often wondered why the Jehoovah Witness church has their own bible, it's no different to me as the way theMormons have their own source of inspired scripture.
Protestant Christians can read from a myriad of biblical options, JW are ordered to read only the watchtower organizations bible
JWs are told what they can and can't believe
The other thing is they pretend to serve their, when they are serving the tenants of the church.
God never asked people to go door knocking for x amount of hours per week

a reply to: ClovenSky

ETA: I believe I have found it at archive.org, however I am still looking for a collection of pdfs of books with topics related to everything we discuss here on ATS, if such a website exists containing such a collection. -end of edit.

I never seem to be able to find these free pdfs. I just tried and all I got was a fake file pretending to be the book but really just has a picture of the cover and a link to a website requiring a paid account.

Could somebody please help me?
Also is there a good website with pdfs of interesting books?


To the OP, as far as the Trinity, I don't know man. I don't think it's man's responsibility to know the unknowable. And, assuming there is some kind of God, I tend to believe there probably is, I don't think he or she or it would punish a person for accidentally believing in the wrong thing or detail, or for accidentally not believing in the right thing or detail.

Unfortunately,Im currently (temporarily) on a very limited data plan on my mobile device which makes the viewing of videos online a luxery I simply cannot afford at the moment. Although a few of those do look interesting, and I do wish there was some way I could read the jist of them.

If only ATS had some kind of terms and conditions which members must agree to prior to joining the site... and if only that theoretical terms and conditions contained some kind of a section relating to the posting of videos which required a member to post some kind of a basic breakdow or jist of each video posted...

Ah, well, a man can always dream, can't he?

originally posted by: Raggedyman
JW are ordered to read only the watchtower organizations bible...

Aren't you supposed to avoid lying or spreading, repeating lies (inadvertently)?

Cause it's not helping your position, only having great propagandistic effect on the audience here.

Oh btw, who is in a better position to tell whether or not that is a lie? The people responding here who never want to hear them out and provide zero evidence or logical reasons for their false slanderous claims (and no that's not an invitation to put up links to propaganda websites twisting and telling half-truths and basically doing the same thing, see last video in this comment)? Or the one who might actually get to hear that supposed "order" if it was true? Note the variety of bible translations used in the video below (or any of the videos I've shared so far):

You are just using it as an excuse the same way evolutionary fans will say of ID-proponents that they aren't scientists or aren't doing science. If you're going to say something, at least respond to something in the OP rather than spreading propagandistic arguments that have nothing to do with the OP (red herrings, ad hominems, slander, guess you don't have a real response just like evolutionary philosophers who won't respond to the topic with anything detailed or any logic, just lame attacks on the source rather than addressing anything of that source).

Note the bible verse quoted at the end of this video if you want to demonstrate that you care about what the bible says more than what your teachers described in 2 Timothy 4:3,4 say (also not from the NWT or what you refer to as the "watchtower organization bible"):

Oh, it would be nice and a great demonstration of your attitude towards what is true and what is not true (false, deceptive, slander, propaganda, etc.) if you would stop using that argument after this comment. Honesty and reliability should be important to you given your religious views, I didn't notice anything about lying, spreading or repeating lies inadvertently, deception, the use of propaganda and slander (false accusations), willful ignorance of the facts, using half-truths, agitating the emotions, exploiting insecurities, capitalizing on the ambiguity of language, bending rules of logic or demonstrating not having any respect for who you are talking to (by not registering anything they're saying and responding to that or adjusting your views accordingly when you are shown to be wrong about something, or at least not well-informed and biased Eeast-Indian deafness, a Dutch expression regarding being very selective in what you want to hear) in 2 Peter 3:15 (ESV):

but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,

a reply to: whereislogic

I am sorry whereislogic, it was not meant as an attack.
I truly believe what I said, I could well be wrong
Tell me mr logic, do you actively read anti JW literature, web sites, YouTube links

Believe it or not, I read as much anti Protestant material as I can.

See the thing is, nobody, no church, no man, no org, no building stands between me and my God. The only "man" is
I am free to,fellowship at hundreds of different denominations, you, only one.
I find that strange

and what makes your version right, what makes you the go to man, the oracle.
Isn't yours just another opinion

Isn't this thread just your opinion

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: whereislogic
I truly believe what I said, I could well be wrong

You are wrong, you've been shown to be wrong (even before you made your comment), you can learn that you're wrong (using logic and proper research, such as watching the videos rather than pretending that those videos aren't using other bibe translations or even when you admit that they do, pretending it still somehow has no effect on your false accusation/lie (I'm talking about self-deception here with "pretending"), i.e. willful ignorance so you can continue telling that lie and pretend to not know the truth about it and that you "could well be wrong"; no, you ARE wrong and it's time to deal with that reality/fact/certainty) and I'm just hoping you're not going to use the above as an excuse to continue to be wrong and spread this particular false slanderous accusation that isn't going to get any less false or slanderous with more people believing in it because they've been told and in your case now, also because you propably don't want to watch the biblical advice regarding this behaviour in the last video I shared.

Cause if you do (repeat the lie), I have no issues with calling you a liar rather than just someone who is inadvertently spreading lies. Like I said, if you're not a hypocrite when you claim you care what the bible says, you should also care about this and not misrepresent some group because you've been conditioned not to like them by the system of things (and your religious teachers or those who have influenced your way of thinking, especially about them).

Here's what will happen if you ignore what I've been trying to tell you via the videos, which are 80% of my responses to you making this conversation pointless if you refuse to watch (especially after 6:30), like having your fingers in your ears 80% of the time I'm talking if this was a verbal conversation (that is not very polite, respectful or of any use if you think you understand the bible better than me and are willing to do what Jesus commanded you to do, "make disciples of people of all the nations", Matthew 28:19; and doing so according to 1 Peter 3:15):

Matthew 28:19,20 (NW this time, but if you want you can go to biblehub and compare):

Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

P.S. I've probably watched or have been confronted with more anti-Jehovah (and his witnesses) arguments, slander, propaganda and twists than you imagined when you made your last comment. Ranging from supposed collaboration with Hitler, the UN, Roman Catholicism, Freemasonry, NWO, the illuminati, (your 2 false accusations of false prophets and the other one we've been discussing that's a bit shorter to discuss) to theological bias in their bible translations, brainwashing, propaganda, suicide cult, shunning issues, making fun of 'Jesus is Michael the Archangel', the 144,000, twisting the spelling of God's name in the english language and pretending english is the only language in the world with that way of arguing, and on and on it goes. I've heard it all and I've seen the websites, don't worry about me. Some less slanderous propagandistic lies would help me see your point of view a lot better than those websites. You know, people actually adressing the issues of the identity of God and the bible verses I bring up in my comments and videos (preferrably without twisting them or cherry-picking bible translation that actually ARE theologically biased without mentioning anything about the Greek or Hebrew showing that bible translation to be false and/or deceptive, misleading).

An outrageuous example of this behaviour that people in this thread are demonstrating (what's with the Indian and fire walking? Towards the end the guy says something really ironic: "It's hard to say why they're being picked on...they do have a very bad image"; oh gosh, I wonder why, may the propaganda you are helping spread with your misinformation and slanderous spin have something to do with it? And the rest of mainstream media and society doing the same thing in other countries as well? Only slight mix regarding subtleties in tactics and arguments, since in the West they don't care about the Pagan practice of fire walking anymore? Or would know a little better how it's viewed by those studying the bible?):

a reply to: whereislogic

Can you tell me what year the JW org brought out their own version of the bible and why.

We disagree on the understandings of the bible, I am quite capable af attacking and dismantling your comments on JW org, I don't intend to

I find it petty and irrelevant, arguing over if Christ was hung on a cross or a stake, does it matter, I guess it does to you, if it does then you have no concept of the bigger picture

Not interested in what your opinion, faith belief is or arguing saemantic

Believe as you wish, I am a goat to you as you are to me

It makes the 'dismissal without addressing any part of the OP'-game so much easier (and triggers the usual thought patterns conditioned in others to do the same). But it's more telling when it's coming from someone who claims to take their information and guidance from the bible, complains occasionally about the tactics employed by evolutionary philosophers and their fans debating on ATS, then turns around and demonstrates to be affected by the same propagandistic style of arguing and way of thinking. Denial and distractions away from the points raised (or twisting those points when responding to argue a straw man, just mentioning it before someone does it cause it seems to happen a lot on ATS).

An example of a straw man regarding this subject would be the phrase:

"denying the Deity of Christ" (which would actually be referring to the God/Deity of Christ. The God of Christ is Jehovah according to the bible, 'pot calling the kettle black')

Or if someone can get the grammar right to say what they actually mean in spite of the propagandistic confusing mysterious misleading twisted teachings they've been taught (the phrase above for example, just like they misuse the word "Deity" others misuse the word "nothing", capitalizing on the ambiguity of language or victims of someone else doing that):

"denying the divinity of Christ" (which is still a straw man, cause those who know what the bible says at John 1:1c, "the Word was a god", do not deny the divinity of Jesus Christ, who is a divine being, see video I shared earlier about John 1:1; that's just a blatant dishonest misrepresentation of someone's views, in a MSM documentary they did it to him as well, it's about Isaac Newton rejecting the Trinity; the 2nd link is much more honest about it, search for "trinity"; btw, I'm about to adjust and replace the first link with a cleaned up video without twists, so I expect it to be there for less than 48 hours)

Then there's a possible false accusation that also somewhat functions as a straw man (and more pot calling the kettle black):

'you're a polytheist for acknowledging the same thing Paul acknowledged, that there are other gods' (of course they won't mention the last thing when this argument comes up, or they'll twist it to pretend Paul was only contrasting false gods to the only true God)

But of course, you won't get to hear someone express any of these straw man arguments or detailed false accusations about theology if someone just plays the dismissal game even better with the usual thought patterns involving:

Lies, Lies!

Certainly, the handiest trick of the propagandist is the use of outright lies. Consider, for example, the lies that Martin Luther wrote in 1543 about the Jews in Europe: “They have poisoned wells, made assassinations, kidnaped children . . . They are venomous, bitter, vindictive, tricky serpents, assassins, and children of the devil who sting and work harm.” His exhortation to so-called Christians? “Set fire to their synagogues or schools . . . Their houses [should] also be razed and destroyed.”

The Manipulation of Information: Awake!—2000

IS THE WORK OF JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES PROPAGANDISTIC?

Some opponents of Jehovah’s Witnesses have accused them of spreading Zionist propaganda. Others have charged that the ministry of the Witnesses promotes Communism. Still others have claimed that the work of Jehovah’s Witnesses promotes the ideals and interests of “American imperialism.” And there are those who assert that the Witnesses are anarchists, fomenting disorder with the aim of changing the social, economic, political, or legal order. Obviously, these conflicting accusations cannot all be true.

The simple fact is that Jehovah’s Witnesses are none of the above. The work of the Witnesses is carried out in faithful obedience to Jesus Christ’s mandate to his disciples: “You will be witnesses of me . . . to the most distant part of the earth.” (Acts 1:8) Their work focuses solely and exclusively on the good news of the heavenly Kingdom—God’s instrument for bringing peace to the whole earth.—Matthew 6:10; 24:14.

Observers of Jehovah’s Witnesses have found no evidence that this Christian community has ever been a force disruptive of the good order of any land.

Many journalists, judges, and others have commented on the positive contributions that Jehovah’s Witnesses have made to the communities in which they live. Consider some examples. After attending a convention of Jehovah’s Witnesses, a reporter from southern Europe commented: “These are people with strong family ties, they are taught to love and to live by their conscience so as not to harm others.”

Another journalist, formerly negative about the Witnesses, stated: “They live an exemplary life. They do not violate the standards of what is moral and right.” A political scientist similarly remarked about the Witnesses: “They behave toward other people with profound kindness, love and gentleness.”

Jehovah’s Witnesses teach the rightness of submission to authority. As law-abiding citizens, they follow Bible standards of honesty, truthfulness, and cleanliness. They build good morals into their own families, and they help others to learn how they can do the same. They live peaceably with all men, not getting involved in disruptive demonstrations or political revolutions. Jehovah’s Witnesses seek to be exemplary in obeying the laws of the human superior authorities, while they wait patiently on the Supreme Authority, the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, to restore perfect peace and righteous government to this earth.

At the same time, the work of the Witnesses is educational. Using the Bible as a basis, they teach people worldwide to reason on Bible principles and thereby develop right standards of conduct and moral integrity. They promote values that improve family life and help young people cope with their peculiar challenges. They also help people to find the strength to overcome bad habits and to develop the ability to get along with others. Such a work would hardly be termed “propaganda.” As The World Book Encyclopedia says, in a climate where ideas circulate freely, “propaganda differs from education.”

Unlike others who much prefer to say things about other groups that foster hatred ('they're illuminati, freemasons, Nazi collaborators, communists, Zionists, cultists, occult, only use their own bible, closed minded and "ordered to read only the watchtower" material, etc.', anything negative that fosters hate, dislike or distrust), sometimes very subtly and cunning with previously mentioned tactics and also demonstrated a bit more obviously by Luther in the article above while they play all innocent and sometimes even accuse others of doomsaying, spreading fear and bigotry (and perhaps even hatred).

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: whereislogic

I find it petty and irrelevant, arguing over if Christ was hung on a cross or a stake, does it matter, I guess it does to you, if it does then you have no concept of the bigger picture

Nice red herring, since you brought it up first. Because it's easier to confuse people about that subject than about God's name and the approx. 7000 deceptions and lies in almost every bible translation in use by people who share your views regarding the doctrine of the Trinity, only to refer to the NWT as being biased and deceptive; and I doubt that you can logically address that point alone without pretending that "the LORD" is an adequate translation of God's name as it is found in the Hebrew when there already is a word for "lord" in Hebrew, "adonai", and you can hardly confuse it with "Yehowah" (in the Masoretic texts dating back to the 9th century for example, where the vowel marks have been added). Or if you tried you might try going for another spelling, as if that somehow justifies the deception of approx. 7000 mistranslations by those bibles using "the LORD" and "God" (inconsistently as well). And people using those translations while dissing the NWT (in speeches, on websites, in comments).

I find what is mentioned in the videos in the OP, the article in the OP and what I've been talking about so far much more relevant to this thread; seeing that that was the reason I started it.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: whereislogic
Tell me mr logic, do you actively read anti JW literature, web sites, YouTube links

Please don't derogatively refer to me as mr logic and attempt to influence yourself and others to think of me as a person who would arrogantly and pridefully call himself that way ('professing to be wise they became fools').

My name is phrased as a question, in search of those preferring to apply logic rather than propaganda techniques disrespecting the person they're talking to and twisting what they're saying (or otherwise paint a picture on them and twist people's perception of them and what they're saying, or facilitate in the dismissal game because you're discrediting someone by questioning character or motives).

"Anti JW literature, web sites, YouTube links" and your behaviour in relation to these and in relation to the bible, as well as that of others who share your views or ways of thinking is actually one of my biggest clues regarding the determination of truths pertaining to God, the bible and other important matters of reality and human behaviour. The more propaganda some people need or resort to, the more unaware some people are of the very techniques (and ways of thinking and treating others who disagree with their views) they have fallen victim to and are now using themselves, the more obvious the earlier mentioned things become for me (all throughout this thread and other threads so far).

Talking about "the bigger picture", why don't you try to have another look at the 5 videos in the OP, all of them in a row and try to see the bigger picture there. I'm talking about the set of videos that start talking about evolutionary philosophies and their Pagan roots.

a reply to: whereislogic

Whereislogic I am not interested in your videos, your arguments or your propaganda

I think of JWs the same way I think of Mormons
I accept the Nicene creed, stop preaching at me, as I said I am a goat to you

The scary thing is the Watchtower org is similar to the Vatican and pope org, unquestionably perfect according to your god, lower g for demigods
You are not allowed to question the Watchtower, that's a cult
Watchtower destroys family's, another cult action, the Catholics arnt that bad
JW consider themselves sole authority from God, very Catholic of them

More?
Nah, believe what you like, just don't lie to me about your gods (JW org) belief,modeled on Catholicism

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: whereislogic
I am not interested in your videos, your arguments or your propaganda...

Yeah, I know, you've got nothing but repetition of the same slanderous propagandistic arguments that have been addressed in the videos, that's why you're not interested, you don't even want to consider if you might have been affected yourself ending up accusing others who are honestly and in detail showing you how it works and how you've been affected. I can't snap my fingers and make you see or watch. I can however make it clear which video specificly addresses some of your false accusations in your last comment (and I've already explained the intent).

The one with the title "What epidome claims..." and the one with "Humble yourselves..." have the most.

For everyone who feels the same way (interesting how fans of evolutionary philosophies, all sorts of organized religions or private religious beliefs are so perfectly matching the bible's descriptions of their behaviour showing they're all on the same bandwagon when it comes to Jehovah).

2 Timothy 4:3,4:

For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the wholesome* teaching, but according to their own desires, they will surround themselves with teachers to have their ears tickled.* 4 They will turn away from listening to the truth and give attention to false stories.

1st * = Or “healthful; beneficial.”
2nd * = Or “to tell them what they want to hear.”

Spirit of the World: Reasoning

Spirit of the World

Definition: The impelling force that influences human society made up of those who are not servants of Jehovah God, causing such people to say and do things according to a characteristic pattern. Although people act on individual preferences, those who manifest the spirit of the world give evidence of certain basic attitudes, ways of doing things, and aims in life that are common to the present system of things of which Satan is ruler and god.
...
What are some of the characteristics of the spirit of the world against which we need to be on guard?

1 Cor. 2:12: “Now we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God, that we might know the things that have been kindly given us by God.” (If the spirit of the world takes root in a person’s thinking and desires, its fruitage is soon seen in actions that manifest that spirit. So, breaking free from the spirit of the world requires not only avoiding unchristian activities and excesses but also getting to the root of the matter by cultivating attitudes that reflect God’s spirit and genuine love for his ways. This you should keep in mind as you consider the following manifestations of the spirit of the world.)

Doing what a person wants to do, without regard for the will of God

Satan urged Eve to decide for herself what was good and what was bad. (Gen. 3:3-5; in contrast see Proverbs 3:5, 6.) Many who follow Eve’s course do not know what God’s will for mankind is, nor are they interested in finding out. They just “do their own thing,” as they say. Those who know God’s requirements and try to conform to them need to be careful that the world’s spirit does not cause them deliberately to ignore the counsel of God’s Word in what they may view as “little things.”—Luke 16:10; see also “Independence.”

originally posted by: Raggedyman
See the thing is, nobody, no church, no man, no org, no building stands between me and my God. The only "man" is
I am free to,fellowship at hundreds of different denominations,...

You demonstrate in this thread that you do not care what the bible says either, multiple translations from different sources. You are going your own way just like most people on ATS. Sometimes people erronuously refer to it as thinking for themselves when there's little thinking involved, just gut feelings (and a distaste for valuable knowledge, facts that matter).

Reacting to situations on the basis of pride

It was Satan who first allowed an overestimation of self to corrupt his heart. (Compare Ezekiel 28:17; Proverbs 16:5.) Pride is a divisive force in the world of which he is ruler, causing people to consider themselves better than those of other races, nations, language groups, and economic status. Even those serving God may need to root out remnants of such feelings.

So what do they do rather than deal with their own behaviour and feelings of dismissal and disdane/hostility towards "beneficial teaching" ("not put up with" in 2 Timothy), instead they project their own feelings on the one they want to be dismissed:

originally posted by: Raggedyman
and what makes your version right, what makes you the go to man, the oracle.

You can do your own research, but the facts won't go away with you pointing fingers at me without spelling out your accusation but subtly suggesting it to anyone who reads it.
Show Love and Respect by Controlling Your Tongue: The Watchtower (2006)

Beware of “an Unruly Injurious Thing”

4. How can the tongue be a force for good or for bad?

4 The Bible writer James says that the tongue is “an unruly injurious thing” that “is full of death-dealing poison.” (James 3:8) James was aware of this vital truth: An unruly tongue is destructive. Undoubtedly, he was familiar with the Bible proverb that compares thoughtless words to “the stabs of a sword.” In contrast, the same proverb says that “the tongue of the wise ones is a healing.” (Proverbs 12:18) Indeed, words can have a powerful effect. They can hurt, or they can heal.

It sounds to me like the following question is good to ask themselves when making comments (and I'm also thinking of myself, no human is perfect):
What effect do my words have?

I don't know if the JW organisation can disbar non members but I would ask, please disbar me from your endless rhetoric
I think you have been lied to, I think the JW org is a cult, I think you should just accept others disagree
I don't get door knockers, I don't get them for a reason

I will not be a victim of your cults propoganda

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: whereislogic

Can you tell me what year the JW org brought out their own version of the bible and why.

We disagree on the understandings of the bible, I am quite capable af attacking and dismantling your comments on JW org, I don't intend to

I find it petty and irrelevant, arguing over if Christ was hung on a cross or a stake, does it matter, I guess it does to you, if it does then you have no concept of the bigger picture

Not interested in what your opinion, faith belief is or arguing saemantic

Believe as you wish, I am a goat to you as you are to me

I studied with the JW for approx. two years and I agree with your assessment but the rabbit hole goes much deeper. After I walked away I continue to watch and read some of their publications to remind me of the dangers of the JW sect.

The Watchtower organization teaches their JW servants that the ONLY the Watchtower organization is being guided and instructed by God and no other organization on this planet.

They teach Prince Michael in heaven was Jesus Christ.

Since their beginnings they have made numerous false prophecies and just what does it say about false prophets?

Deuteronomy 18:20-22 - "But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.’ And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the Lord has not spoken?’— when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him."

How often has that happened within the JW sect? Numerous times! And this is your warning!!!

Take a close look at their bible that is written for the JW. One of the people involved was a well known occultist!

If this thread is about JW beliefs that I caution everyone to do their own research. One main reason why JW are so dangerous? They are united in their teaching with the use of their pamphlets and instruction booklets BUT if you study God's word you will see the hearsay and lies they creep into their publications. Simply because they are well read and have basically been pressured by other JW friends and JW family members to study their indoctrined material and are basically 85% accurate of the bible it is that 15% of BS that is dangerous. Since this thread is not about JW, I will not list the LONG lists of JW fallacies.

A simple word of caution.

originally posted by: whereislogic
related to the above historical truths/facts.

That is what people say when there is no rational logic, they start spouting terms, ignorantly, like 'truth/facts'.

"New study of the brain shows that facts and beliefs are processed in exactly the same way."

www.newsweek.com...

a reply to: 3n19m470

The breakdown is in the article in the OP and the link to my other comment at the end of the OP.

It would stand to reason that the system of things would discourage the watching of videos seeing that you can learn the most from them and the fastest. On the other hand, it could also just be a coincidence, the way things turned out with the increase in popularity of mobile devices over pc's.

The videos have more additional background information and the evidence in the form of important historical facts to consider regarding this subject.

Btw, for everyone else, this thread isn't a bash Jehovah's witnesses thread, it's about the doctrine of the Trinity, the three 16th century truth seekers (that aren't connected to the Jehovah's witnesses) and the identity of the only true and almighty God.

I wonder if I start a thread with the title "1+1=2 is a fact/truth/certainty" and quote anything from 1 particular source that people don't like, regardless of how obviously true it is, people will still want to talk about that source as a cult, spreading false prophecies, etc. Your disdainful and hateful attitude towards me looking down as if I'm the one being unreasonable or brainwashed here is very obvious to me. You don't listen to a word I'm saying, you just want to spread your propaganda on my thread, anything I might say in defense about your numerous false and unsupported accusations just gets ignored or pushed aside (you are demonstrating facts/truths don't matter one bit to you regarding this subject most of you chose to talk about). Make a thread about Jehovah's witnesses if you can't resist.

When doing this you are also demonstrating you don't want to learn anything or be honest about what you've learned. No respect for history, no respect for science/knowledge, no wisdom. The only reason I can think of for these people to do this is to influence others, cause they're certainly not trying to convincing me that I've been deceived. If you think someone is deceived or brainwashed or anything like that (affected by propaganda), and you care at least a little bit, wouldn't you want to be a bit more honest and accurate in what you're trying to warn them of? Does that make comments longer? Yes, but then a person can actually learn something from it rather than having triggers triggered or buttons pushed.
But I guess that opens up the door to the twist of saying you don't care about me, at least that would be honest for a change, but hypocritical again for those claiming to follow the guidance of the bible and supposedly warning others for deception rather than using slander to make them ignore, trivialize or dismiss as unimportant what someone is pointing towards. And a demonstration of what I quoted about "the Spirit of the World" before in any case.

For bashing Jehovah's witnesses, move to Bulgaria or Russia, there the police will look away as people express the effects of the type of comments and propaganda some of you have been putting in this thread which have affected their way of thinking and feelings about Jehovah's witnesses leading to this (note that the Orthodox church is involved with this also in Bulgaria and Russia, supposed 'Christians'):

But keep playing innocent as you spread the exact same arguments (with the same effect of fostering 'looking down upon'>dislike>disdain>hatred) these people do (the video with Isaac Newton shows the same behaviour in the next part that I didn't link, but it will show it once I've made my own version of that documentary showing only what's important and leaving out all the twists to do the same to Isaac Newton as people here on ATS have done to me and are continuously doing to both Jehovah and his witnesses, such as Jesus; even while they claim or say "I believe in Jesus", as if they're absolved from their behaviour just for saying it).
Check out the arguments used by the MSM station below (especially the Orthodox Church guy at the end, more detailed commentary about that here):

These videos are directly related to one another, one is the effect of the other (and similar propagandistic media that I shared before from the same station. NBC has one as well but it's too long for me to use as an example).
I can only hope that your type of arguments being used in those videos sort of gets that out of the way. No need to repeat what's already used in the videos anymore (not that that's going to stop certain determined people).

a reply to: Raggedyman

Can you tell me what year the JW org brought out their own version of the bible and why.

Not a new version , a second book to the Bible. The one where Jesus ministered in the Americas.