F-117 retirement...this time they mean it

www.flightglobal.com...

Well maybe. The House Armed Services Committee wants to send the F-117 to the Davis Monthan boneyard. I've search the interwebs and it seems all the articles just reference Flight Global. I will look for the actual text on CSPAN.

Incidentally, though the article mentions the barns are air-conditioned, it isn't clear the aircraft are still stored that way. My recollection was some gear on the plane liked the ice box treatment, but we don't know if that gear is still on the plane.

If they do retire the fleet, do they make them airworthy again or just truck them out?

a reply to: gariac

Interesting. Did not know this so S and F!

Quite an aircraft to say the least.

a reply to: gariac

Sell them to New Zealand at 1 mill each. That's what we did with our scooters.

Bally

originally posted by: gariac
www.flightglobal.com...

Well maybe. The House Armed Services Committee wants to send the F-117 to the Davis Monthan boneyard. I've search the interwebs and it seems all the articles just reference Flight Global. I will look for the actual text on CSPAN.

Incidentally, though the article mentions the barns are air-conditioned, it isn't clear the aircraft are still stored that way. My recollection was some gear on the plane liked the ice box treatment, but we don't know if that gear is still on the plane.

If they do retire the fleet, do they make them airworthy again or just truck them out?

Seems to me I read the following query before on these boards - is the reason for junking them, they need the hangar space for something new? The cost to mothball them as they sit now can't be that high, can it?

Good question about getting them to the boneyard - methinks trucking them.

a reply to: FosterVS

More like the cost to upgrade them and bring them back to service if necessary is getting too high.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Any idea of the 117 is retired for good we would get a chance to see the companion, or are the capabilities too sensitive on that still?

a reply to: SonOfThor

I'm betting the chances of ever seeing that are slim to none.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: FosterVS

More like the cost to upgrade them and bring them back to service if necessary is getting too high.

What would they upgrade? It is a plane that doesn't use radar. Nothing to upgrade there. It only drops bombs, and the USAF is big on legacy regarding bomb form factor.

if they kept the F-117A around. It would only be for a mission it already performs. Now that might be the problem. Maybe it has no mission, or more modern planes can do the mission.

If they take them to Davis Monthan, the RAM coating would have to go. I doubt the planes would be useful after spending time in the desert. They might as well chop them up or it them on sticks.

a reply to: gariac

You think the RAM that they currently have would still work against newer radars? Or that they should keep using the sensors that were on them when they were mothballed, when there are sensors that could be fitted that are several years newer, and much more effective?

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: gariac

You think the RAM that they currently have would still work against newer radars? Or that they should keep using the sensors that were on them when they were mothballed, when there are sensors that could be fitted that are several years newer, and much more effective?

We don't have any planes that use sensors the way a f-117 does. The plane had no radar. It flies a preprogrammed path that is loaded onto a computer that is then plugged into the plane. There exists nothing to retrofit the F-117 because that is no longer how we fly. So retrofit with what, specifically?

Modern aircraft use a LPI radar, but is it still radar.

RAM? Nobody knows that is talking, but physics is physics. All RAM does is conserve energy. It is pretty basic. The value is knowing EXACTLY what comprises our RAM to enhance countermeasures. But I'm leaning towards new RAM not being significantly better than old RAM, and again, anybody that knows for sure isn't talking.

a reply to: gariac

They still used FLIR and DLIR, RWR, and others, all of which have been improved since they were retired. RAM is physics but each generation of coatings becomes more efficient.

Just because it flew a programmed route doesn't mean it didn't have sensors or that it doesn't need to be upgraded if it's going to fly again.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: gariac

They still used FLIR and DLIR, RWR, and others, all of which have been improved since they were retired. RAM is physics but each generation of coatings becomes more efficient.

Just because it flew a programmed route doesn't mean it didn't have sensors or that it doesn't need to be upgraded if it's going to fly again.

They can't find the funds just to flog a few weekly, and they are going to fund an upgrade program? And the new sensors will just miraculously communicate with the old avionics? Not likely.

It all comes down to the mission. They retrofitted all the KC-135s because the mission still existed. So what mission does the F-117 fill that can't be done on other airframes? That is the question.

Ya know what, just never mind.

a reply to: Zaphod58

I'm betting the chances of ever seeing that are slim to none.

a reply to: gariac

Considering the Chinese have an F117 parked on the lot of an industrial warehouse specialising in target aquisition technology, i'm not surprised they mean to retire this generation of stealth fighters this time.

A military analyst spotted the plane parked in the lot, retasked a satellite to radar ping the plane to see if it was a mock up or real, and the rader return was virtually non-existent...meaning it was a real stealth aircraft, not a mockup.

My theory?

Out of the 59 F-117's, at least one of the pilots sold one to the Chinese...i'd have a close look at who was downed in Iraq or elsewhere, and what actually happened to their aircraft if i were in military intelligence...

Ahha..with looking around, it is possible that this is where the Chinese got the aircraft;

From Wiki, talking about an F-117 lost over the Balkans in 1999.

After the explosion, the aircraft became uncontrollable, forcing the pilot to eject. The pilot was recovered six hours later by a USAF pararescue team. Photos show that the aircraft struck the ground at low speed in an inverted position, and that the airframe remained relatively intact. The Serbs invited Russian personnel to inspect the aircraft's remains, compromising the then 25-year-old U.S. stealth technology. The F-117's pilot was initially misidentified. Though the name "Capt Ken 'Wiz' Dwelle" was painted on the canopy, it was revealed in 2007 that the pilot was Lt. Col. Dale Zelko. The stealth technology from the downed F-117 may have been acquired by Russia and China.

WIKI

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: SonOfThor

I'm betting the chances of ever seeing that are slim to none.

I found an something interesting today whilst digging:
" 1984, four years after he left Tampa, Stroud was transferred to Tonopah to take part in the F-117 project. Much of the work he did with the project is still classified, Stroud said.

He can’t, for instance, talk about what he was doing during the first Persian Gulf War—that information, he said, is classified, and may or may not be related to the Nighthawk. Nor can he be very specific about his role in the project. Stroud said he was still working in flight operations, but can’t be more specific"

mcindependentnews.com...

a reply to: HomeyKXTA

Also odd is he couldn't believe the plane was retired, ad stated in 2012, when video was uploaded in 2010 of the plane flying around the range.

You can't make too much about not being able to talk about anything. The DoD over classifies everything, and doesn't bother to tell people when their project was declassified.

One of the funnier clarification "incidents" is regarding the Bombe at the NSA museum. A woman who used to operate one was shocked to see it on display since she thought the very word was still a secret.

a reply to: gariac

Yet, it probably raised red flags somewhere when I searched the word "bombe" in a moment where my brain was shut off, because that word means explosive device in german, it even got worser when I clicked a link that contained "built"...

Problems of 2016...

originally posted by: verschickter
a reply to: gariac

Yet, it probably raised red flags somewhere when I searched the word "bombe" in a moment where my brain was shut off, because that word means explosive device in german, it even got worser when I clicked a link that contained "built"...

Problems of 2016...

Oh hey, sorry 'bout that. ;-)

bombe

This article:
www.airforcemag.com...
has the following

Most of the 50-plus airframe fleet currently resides in climate-controlled hangars at the Tonopah Test Range in Nevada, and a couple of the aircraft are flown periodically to practice getting them flightworthy again. It’s not clear if the Black Jets will move finally to the “boneyard” at Davis-Monthan AFB, Ariz., but if the decision is made to park the aircraft in the open, it won’t be possible to bring them back to service, because their stealth coatings would rapidly deteriorate in the heat and sun.

It also mentions where the new retirement is mentioned (note not codified):
docs.house.gov...

Section 133—Repeal of Requirement to Preserve Certain Retired F-117 Aircraft

This section would amend section 136 of the John Warner National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2007 (Public Law 109-364) by striking subsection (b), which would remove the requirement that certain F-117 aircraft be maintained in a condition that would allow recall of those aircraft to future service.

The full public law:
www.gpo.gov...
And the specific text:

SEC. 136. LIMITATION ON RETIREMENT OF F-117A AIRCRAFT DURING FISCAL YEAR 2007.

(a) Limitation.--The number of F-117A aircraft retired by the Secretary of the Air Force during fiscal year 2007 may not exceed 10.

(b) Treatment of Retired Aircraft.--The Secretary of the Air Force shall maintain each F-117A aircraft that is retired by the Secretary after September 30, 2006, in a condition that would allow recall of that aircraft to future service.

One has to conclude if the hive was doing it's homework, we would have known the plane would still be flying a bit post retirement. It was right in public law.

You have to ask where the people with the alleged insider information were on that! This is precisely why I zero out anyone making claims without proof. Time and time again, when the documentation hits the fan, the insiders, or those claiming to know something, know nothing.