Is this the end of the "special relationship" ?

originally posted by: SprocketUK

There is a difference between a citizen or subject of a country having an opinion and the head of state flying over to back one side in particular...

Nothing to stop the leave campaign shipping in a head of state to do the same. Although I can only think of one : Vladimir Putin.......hmmmmm

a reply to: yorkshirelad

I doubt old Vlad would get involved, only those leaders who stand to lose £billions in a Brexit have an opinion on the U.K remaining.

Do you honestly believe Obama gives two hoots about what's best for the U.K?

originally posted by: Cobaltic1978
Do you honestly believe Obama gives two hoots about what's best for the U.K?

As someone very familiar with US foreign policy... yes. As long as it doesn't conflict with US policy.

originally posted by: SprocketUK

Where to start...Ok, point one, The ford motor company doesn't make Transit vans in Turkey for sale in the EU that they used to make in Southampton? Is that what you are saying?

Point two assumes that outside of the EU we would be embargoed from trading with it....

As far as EU immigrants goes, 200 to 300 thousand per year have been coming in since 1997 ish.

The Shengen thing is a red herring, it applies to passport free travel.

As a member of the EU the UK can not stop any other EU citizen making their home here...If they could have, they would have, rather than set themselves up to fail dodgy Dave's tens of thousands promise.

There's also the utter lack of democratic accountability to consider...This country gets to vote for 8% of the MEP's who don't even get to make policy...they just rubber stamp what the unelected ministers have come up with in secret.

Anyway, that's kind of missing the point, which was really about Obama getting involved.

Where to start, OK point one. I used to work for a multinational company in the UK and we were told explicitly by Toyota that the only reason they built a plant in the UK is because we were in the EU. Now they either lied to back the in campaign or they told the truth because it was 3 fricking decades ago!

Point 2 embargo's, tariff's etc. Of course there will be. They will be selective to suit the richer block DUH!!!!!!. But are you really that naive to think that a trading block of EU 18Trillion GDP or the US 18Trillion GDP or China 18Trillion GDP is going to bend over backwards to accommodate our country of 2Trillion. It's not about countries it's about trading blocks. We are small in comparison.

Shengen and immigration, yes they are different but please don't insult me you know damn well that the leave campaign intermixes these two quite happily to suit their agenda. The fact is people can come and go freely without visas but still need a passport to get here even for work!! So it is up to ourselves to control who comes here. We cannot stop someone coming to work but we can stop the often cited mass rapist from coming here. Well if we cooperate with our european neighbours...OMG!!! Small question here who the hell employs the immigrant from the nasty European country that is stealing all our jobs and sucking the country dry of welfare (although that is contradictory but hey ho). I shall answer it : a rich UK born person who wants a better spec Merc than the one they are currently driving, that's who. They will still find a way to reduce their wage bill after we leave the EU and nobody will be any better off. Reality check (look at Brexit backers).

Democratic accountability, you are having a fricking laugh. Would that be 25% of voters in the UK voting for the Tories? Would that be the cabinet that decides on policy and nobody ever votes on one single member of the cabinet NOT EVEN MP'S IN THE SAME PARTY. Guess what your Euro MP's that you vote for have to vote approval for the commission members so that makes it more accountable than our legislative process. Oh and one last point the EU commission has one member per country thus removing the bias of the larger members but in the UK every cabinet member is a "friend" of the PM who solely appoints them.

originally posted by: Cobaltic1978
a reply to: yorkshirelad

I doubt old Vlad would get involved, only those leaders who stand to lose £billions in a Brexit have an opinion on the U.K remaining.

Ooops you have missed the point by a country mile......

originally posted by: yorkshirelad

originally posted by: Cobaltic1978
a reply to: yorkshirelad

I doubt old Vlad would get involved, only those leaders who stand to lose £billions in a Brexit have an opinion on the U.K remaining.

Ooops you have missed the point by a country mile......

Lol, I think you missed my point by a country mile.

a reply to: yorkshirelad

Seems to me you are getting a bit emotional and letting that cloud your judgement.

You hinted that foreign investment is reliant upon our eu membership.
My example of the Ford plant was a perfect counter.

Next immigration. Leaving aside your hyperbole.
There is a housing shortage, school place shortage, Gp appointment shortage , pressure on benefits and wage compression in the uk
This is a result of the mass immigration from eu countries which as a member of the EU the uk just cannot stop. It's written into the treaties.

It's not about crims or stealing our jobs. To always try and twist the narrative in that way is to acknowledge there is a problem which can't be countered without admitting that the brexit answer is the only one.

As for the UK government...We can vote them out.
We cannot ever vote the commission out.
Our mep's carry 8 per cent of the votes for approving commissioners.
So its a fallacy to try and compare the two.
One system is directly elected by the people who have to live under the laws and pay the taxes, the other is not.

a reply to: SprocketUK

Today I found out just how much a snake Obama is..
wasn't Impressed by him or "Dodgy Dave".. # em

a reply to: SprocketUK


Exactly. The EU is illiberal and undemocratic. I cannot understand why people brush over this and focus solely on speculation regarding the consequences of whether we stay or leave.

originally posted by: rigel4
a reply to: SprocketUK

Today I found out just how much a snake Obama is..
wasn't Impressed by him or "Dodgy Dave".. # em

I wasn't surprised so much as disappointed in them both.

Rigel4 dead right. I can't understand why the leave camp is always letting remain set the agenda and not pushing this very obvious line.

Cameron asked Obama to come here to reinforce his lies. Of course Obama came over although he sounds like he is already an estranged partner.

Nevertheless, the EU is already in financial trouble and with the next mass lot waiting to try their luck in Europe for whatever reasons neither Europe or the UK can keep on accommodating all these people because we don't need them. We can't employ all our own graduate or work force and importantly the country's infra structure is grid locked virtually!

I suspect once we have our referendum (although cam is obviously looking at ways of fixing this vote like the last Scottish one) I dare say some other EU countries will leave also. This huge trading block has given us mass interference in our lives and businesses but you can't get away from the fact that the EU is made up too many very different countries and I suspect most of us would like our sovereignty and cultures back. The EU is somewhat impersonal although perhaps its living on an island that as an Englishman I feel it the most.

Obama is just a tool being used by cam and co and I expect they even wrote his script.

a reply to: Shiloh7

Yes. The fact that he used the word queue rather than line has been touted as an indicator that the speech was written by someone in downing street.

a reply to: SprocketUK


You have to be so careful about the motives of politicians, Cameron and Obama know that if they come out and say stay in the European Union, then most will think # them I'm voting out. Then Britain is out and they can blame the declining standard of living on the fact that the population voted that way. So then it would be your fault, and they will say I told you so. Its all about falling standards of living . They will not improve by moving the deck chairs.

At the end of the day, irrespective of where we were born or brought up, our politicians are only interested in feathering their own nests. Power corrupts, and it is us, those without power that can see that as plain as the sunrise. When humanity and its leaders can see past their own greed and ambition, then the human race might have a chance. Until then, its dog eat dog. Sad but true. I just wish humanity could learn to work together and progress itself. Until then, we are lost until something or someone comes and tells us the error of our ways. We have spent too long in the fear of religion and the need to conform.

a reply to: SprocketUK

Just ignore him. Most of us do anymore these days.

originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: crayzeed
I think Obama laid it on the line for the UK. As Uncommitted said the far east companies came to the Uk for one reason only, which is the same as the US now. Uk IS their stepping stone into the EU. We come out of the EU and that reason has gone.
Your reason 1 is wrong. The reason the far east companies came to the Uk is that the other EU countries would not allow them in. Do you not remember the French putting an inport limit (10 car per week) on the Japanese car companies because they were not in the EU. THAT's why they built in the UK.
Your 2 is wrong also. If we leave the EU then some very large foriegn owned companies will lose the advantage of being in the UK and will try to sweet deal a European country instead.
I can tell you a very large US company has just bought a large UK based company specifically to get into Europe. If we come out that will go awol.
Let me make clear another Brexit lie that gets repeated time and again. Immigration!! Please understand this, the UK did NOT sign the Schengen agreement. Our borders have NEVER been open. The UK have NEVER been forced by the EU to take in thousands of immigrants, that has ALWAYS been the UKs governments decision. And if we come out of the EU it will not make one iotas difference to our immigration policy (whatever that is). Our borders have always been as secure as we can make them.

Where to start...Ok, point one, The ford motor company doesn't make Transit vans in Turkey for sale in the EU that they used to make in Southampton? Is that what you are saying?

Point two assumes that outside of the EU we would be embargoed from trading with it....

As far as EU immigrants goes, 200 to 300 thousand per year have been coming in since 1997 ish.

The Shengen thing is a red herring, it applies to passport free travel.

As a member of the EU the UK can not stop any other EU citizen making their home here...If they could have, they would have, rather than set themselves up to fail dodgy Dave's tens of thousands promise.

There's also the utter lack of democratic accountability to consider...This country gets to vote for 8% of the MEP's who don't even get to make policy...they just rubber stamp what the unelected ministers have come up with in secret.

Anyway, that's kind of missing the point, which was really about Obama getting involved.

I was just about to say the same thing!

It's not about trade and all that BS.

a reply to: SprocketUK

No it is not the end of the Special Relationship, that ended when we finished paying for the lend lease treatise made during WW2.

Remember this though, though they were not our blood relatives in most cases (they were in a heck of a lot of them though) there are cemetery's of young kid's lying all over Europe and in Britain whom laid down there live's for us, not just after the Jap's attacked pearl harbour but also many died whom came over of there own accord and joined our armed forces before the state's joined the war (true there were also many whom came to europe to join the German's and the Italian's but that is the nature of the US it is a melting pot) so in essence many of us here were born and are alive today because of there sacrifice and so in essence by there action's and the sacrifice they paid alongside our own lad's they have the right to be regarded as having joined our father's whom died for us and to those man and there family's we owe an eternal debt of allegiance, an ubreakable family bond.

But as for Barrack, well he was a disappointment for many in the state's, I actually still think he was a good man but not from external point over the pond here in blight looking at the states and the US seem's to have gone down under his presidency more than ever before so maybe he was not a good president but to be fair his hand's were tied by the US political system which prevented him doing what he intended or rather promised to do for his people.

He had no right interfering but he most certainly did have a right to voice his opinion, as for US economic trade agreement's - well that is a matter for his successor though currently My odd's on favorite to win the race Trump does not really like us too much since he spoke the truth about our inner city's having Islamic ruled no go area's but then had our own lying politicians and corrupt media attack him on that very true and valid point so it may not look that good when he is in the white house.

But here is another point, who is Barrack really representing?.

There was a US president, Dwight D Eisenhower whom warned about the growing power in the States of the Military Industrial Complex and the threat it posed to US democracy, he was not perhaps one of there greatest president's (many would rightly argue otherwise though) but he was a damn good one and he cared about his people and his nation, he also cared about the British since he had was the US general whom had helped to save our nation and he knew the price in US blood that the salvation of Britain and the liberation of europe had cost in his soldiers lives, how much young American blood had been paid for that liberation.


After his departure from the presidency it was the calm before the storm but by the time Kennedy had been assassinated the US had succumbed to this hidden coup which Eisenhower had warned about and saw coming (with a General and tactical genius' appraisal of the situation).

So since the late 60's the US has belonged not to it's people but to it's shadowy corporation's many of which are front's for black op wing's of a runaway military machine and remain so regardless of whom own's share's in them with a controlling stake always kept hidden by proxy organisation's and company's.

So they own the US political system as well since these corporation's also lobby and pay for there puppet representative's whose campaign's they most often subsidise.

It is therefore not our special relationship with the US that is under threat but our special position within the Cabal whom are moving to consolidate power and whom do not care at all about our nation's or people's but only there own control of the globe, a cabaal that began as the hidden black heart of the US military industrial complex always scheming behind the scenes and which has engineered the demise of TRUE US democratic representation, a Cabaal that has since woven it's thread of corruption on a global scale and for whom the merging of Europe is merely an exorcise in the consolidation of further power to themselves using economic power as there main tactical asset.

In short if you want a free world, a democratic world then not only we but all nations have to have there freedom from this control.

So is this economic tie and being bound to proxy corporations really that important to us or would it be better to get our act together and get our own company's back onto the world stage were they belong and to start looking after OUR OWN people again.

Lastly do you really think the other interests would allow there financial nest egg to go to the dog's, hambourg is not there first port of call - they know the German's just want to get there hand's on there asset's for there own interest's so they like many other's use the corruption (and it's accompanying British government's hand's off policy) which is prevalent in the CITY OF LONDON financial sector to launder and hide there money as the (THERE) greatest off shore tax haven so in truth I believe he was merely spouting hot air at the behest of Cameron and Corbyn whom both want us to stay shackled in europe and also as a bridge for the US corporate (Military industrial complex not the US people - calling it US is therefore wrong as it is there own domestic enemy) interests in Europe.

Lastly if we do not get out, it is not Britain that will vanish but the English first, then the Welsh and finally the Scots will be swamped by eastern Europeans in just a few generations at most (Far more than are already here), a higher proportion of young men to woman and we shall fade from history as a distinct national group, indeed out national identity's have already been broken by immigration running rampant from the commonwealth even before the influx from europe began.

So our best interests as a NATION even if not for the corporations and the ultra wealthy minority is to get the hell out of europe as fast as possible and renegotiate with those country's we want to do business with, not to have the third world of eastern Europe foisted on us against our will.

We need to follow Greenland's example, they are doing far better outside the EU than they ever did inside it though it was more a matter of new sovereignty since they were made independant from Denmark or we could stay in the EU with more control's and follow Denmark's example.

We could also follow Norway's option and stay in the EFTA (European Free Trade Area) which would return all of our control except over free trade (which is actually the best option and others would then follow suit forming a block made up of EFTA nation's and hamstringing Brussel's once and for all - saving the EU from runaway corrupt and undemocratic governance as well as restoring our sovereignty right's).

But we need to get Brussel's off our back (I would like to keep the good thing's, workers right's etc but to much bad come's with them as Europe act's in a totalitarian manner over ruling nation parliament's etc).

I read that Dodgey Dave Scameron begged Obama to come and 'bully' the UK into staying.

a reply to: LABTECH767

Very good post and yes you're fight its the cabal that is jerking Obama's jaws. I suspect although I don't especially like the man that he has had a good few 'moments with his conscience because of the way he has aged.

a reply to: CthulhuMythos

Ha our american cousin's won't get that but being a fellow member of the Dennis skinner appreciation society I concur.

Just for the US so they understand it.

The Tory's hate him because he is too honest and too correct.


Sorry it won't play on other site's, so just click the youtube icon on the bottom right corner to go direct to site and video which show's up after pressing play and getting the static image they use to show the video is disallowed off site.

And to be fair it also does not show Alan Duncan (a disgrace of a man whom grew up with daddy's and mommys money) calling Labour low achievers because he has money and they don't (Actually most labour MP's are quite well off and some are millionair's just like the Tory's are).
en.wikipedia.org...
But despite insulting the Labour Party and ninety nine percent of the population of Great Britain and Northern Ireland this Disgrace of a man unlike Dennis skinner whom merely spoke the truth (Albeit tageted at a single person) was not then also sent out of the house or asked to retract his insult.


www.theguardian.com...

And you lot over the pond thought your politic's was entertaining, Skinner is as we say up north a brick, he stick's to his gun's and speak's his mind come what may, even if you disagree with his politics you would still probably like the guy and unlike Dodgy dave I would actually trust him to protect the future of our nation and that of our kid's, actually I would prefer him to corbyn but it would make for some interesting international relation's as he verbally wiped the floor with the head's of other state's.