No death before sin, sin after Adam

a reply to: LifeisGrand

I do t know what agenda you're referring to. I did t see the other post that was removed nor am not a moderator and thus don't have the ability to remove posts. Likewise, joecanada11 is not a mod and also devoid of the power to censor you. Look in your mailbox and reply to the mod who did remove it and ask them why. It's beyond my abilities to ascertain that information.

Too late.

a reply to: peter vlar

When will you learn that when you try to distract you only draw attention?

a reply to: LifeisGrand

I hope the observant reader will note who the one is who is explaining how propaganda works and how to recognize it for yourself without having to take someone elses words (or slanderous 'pot calling the kettle black' accusation) for it.

I hope other people may also note that all the arrows of attack are pointing in one direction, the truths that matter. That is what was the final straw for me knowing who to trust for certain (people of many religious backgrounds, including the Pantheistic philosophies involving evolutionary philosophies, all easily band together when it comes to viewing Jehovah's witnesses as a cult and/or false prophets, doomsayers, etc. The pattern of conditioning is so overwhelming, all reason and logic flies out the window, no rational discussion about the subject of propaganda and getting to specifics really possible and even if I said "1+1=2 is a fact", I've had some people find a way to disagree with that; talking about "abstracts"; people simply don't hear what you're saying anymore because of the programmed dismissive attitude as soon as they connect their prejudice of Jehovah's witnesses to you; like you're a jew in nazi Germany trying to warn them of the evolutionary Trinitarian ideologies of the nazis and how hypocritical their religious leaders are for supporting the nazis and theistic evolution+social Darwinism; and then after the war pretend nothing happened and pin everything on a few nazis while the same nationalistic philosophies and brainwashing techniques were in use in the USA and Canada with similar effects for Jehovah's witnesses as in Germany; again, both coming from the hypocritical Trinitarians as well as evolutionists or apathic atheists, agnostics, etc. going along simply because they didn't get a proper education about propaganda from their religious teachers and gurus, 2 Timothy 4:3,4).

WWII provides the best evidence for who is awake and who is asleep, who are the brainwashers and brainwashed and who are being honest and educating properly with "beneficial teaching" (quoting from my favorite bible verse). But will the history channel ever emphasize the things below? Will creationists talking about social Darwinism and eugenics ever adress the involvement of Trinitarian thinking (as in those Trinitarians in nazi Germany being completely asleep because they don't use the bible properly and are teaching the wrong things and the major organized religions of Christendom lying in bed with Satan's "system of things" for centuries now, using the same propaganda techniques; actually they started the whole "cult", "false prophet", "heretic" routine)?


Note how the no doubt Trinitarian who made the video below tries to pretend Hitler rejected Roman Catholicism in the video below, most top nazis were Roman Catholics and Protestants (and hardly any of those were at the Nurnberg trials, their brainwashing continued in the Churches and the schools, as it did in the US and the rest of the world with various religions or philosophical naturalism in the schools):

originally posted by: Willtell
“Sin” had to have produced a real metaphysical transformation in Adam (mankind) to be a real event.

God didn’t arbitrarily curse Adam the effects of the act produced the curse.

For example.

If a father tells his son why he shouldn’t use hard drugs and they go and do it anyway the harm that will come to them is not in disobeying the father but in the bad effects of the drug use.


So we can surmise that through Adams act of disobedience he exposed himself to something that’s can be analogized to drug addiction. So he evolved to a state of inner imbalance through the corruption over time of some subtle inner faculty of his soul or mind.

That was the curse

This make really good sense. Thank you for posting it.

originally posted by: peter vlar
Science is self correcting.

I understand your magic stick of truth to be capable of all sorts of magic tricks. The word "science" for me comes from the Latin "scientia" meaning "knowledge", which is a familiarity with facts (as a short limited definition). And facts are what they are, they don't change or have to correct themselves to use as an excuse to cover over embarassing frauds you don't want to deal with and brush under the carpet as quickly as you can and continue your accusations that my distrust of people who have been caught time and time again doing these things is somehow unjustified, unreasonable and biased when your distrust of my factual honest sources is reasonable and justified. Turning things upside down while trivializing and downplaying the actual frauds and deceptions per the instructions of mainstream media like the Guardian helping along with that. You'd simply do the same thing with the next example, and the next, rinse and repeat. Here's another example from Eugenie C. Scott doing the same trivializing routine and not dealing with the facts:


Why is your 'magic stick of truth': "science" not correcting Dawkins, Krauss and Stephen Hawking on their usage of the word "nothing"? You don't want to talk about that subject do you...unless it's complaining about quote-mining and supposedly not understanding the subject or what he's talking about. I have no need for 2 hours of smoothtalk about the word "nothing" other than to observe the blind admiration from the audience in that long video on youtube where Dawkins and Krauss discuss it with eachother (what's wrong with these people sitting through that or lectures about the multiverse and life on other planets? 2 Timothy 4:3,4). Bunch of entertainers tickling people's ears with nonsense/paradoxes/contradictions (these words are synonyms again and if you can't see that claiming that "nothing...is..something" is a contradiction/nonsense, really, what's left for us to talk about? Clearly your standards for logic, truth, knowledge, reason, honesty, etc. are not compatible with mine).

originally posted by: whereislogic

originally posted by: peter vlar
Science is self correcting.

I understand your magic stick of truth to be capable of all sorts of magic tricks. The word "science" for me comes from the Latin "scientia" meaning "knowledge", which is a familiarity with facts (as a short limited definition). And facts are what they are, they don't change or have to correct themselves to use as an excuse to cover over embarassing frauds you don't want to deal with and brush under the carpet as quickly as you can and continue your accusations that my distrust of people who have been caught time and time again doing these things is somehow unjustified, unreasonable and biased when your distrust of my factual honest sources is reasonable and justified. Turning things upside down while trivializing and downplaying the actual frauds and deceptions per the instructions of mainstream media like the Guardian helping along with that. You'd simply do the same thing with the next example, and the next, rinse and repeat. Here's another example from Eugenie C. Scott doing the same trivializing routine and not dealing with the facts:

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, regardless of how incorrect it is. It's a little disingenuous to assert that science is a fraud as a whole because one person lied. You totally missed the context regarding the above quote from my post. What it means is that when one person pushes fraudulent data, it will be caught under peer review. This is exactly what happened in group example. Semite else independently tested the materials and the Prof was forced to resign in disgrace, as he should have.

As I mentioned previously, if that is in fact your own metric for fraud then the entire YEC handbook needs to be tossed in the trash. Instead of arguing the genetic data or the science, you go on a philosophical tirade and address none of the science.

Why is your 'magic stick of truth': "science" not correcting Dawkins, Krauss and Stephen Hawking on their usage of the word "nothing"?

Because when you are dealing with theoretical physics, you're talking about Mathemetaical equations. In math, the nothing is something as nothing represents what is left over in a vacuum once all the atoms are removed from that equation. The vacuum of space and space-time itself, are in fact moving so that "nothing" you are complaining about is "something" whether you want to accept that or not. I'm sure there are physicists that could explain it better but that's not my field.

You don't want to talk about that subject do you...unless it's complaining about quote-mining and supposedly not understanding the subject or what he's talking about

Do you wish to discuss the science or just continue with ad hominem slurs? It's your call. I'm happy to discuss the science if you care to articulate what the errors are in your own words instead of posting YouTube videos. I'm not sure how you come to this conclusion when you ignored the entirety of my post and focus on just 4 words. Which is in fact a quote mine by taking 4 words and presenting them entirely out of context and then ranting about it. If you want to discuss the anthropology, please, I'm happy to indulge you.

I have no need for 2 hours of smoothtalk about the word "nothing" other than to observe the blind admiration from the audience in that long video on youtube where Dawkins and Krauss discuss it with eachother (what's wrong with these people sitting through that or lectures about the multiverse and life on other planets?

Then it's your prerogative to skip the 2 hour lecture and let people who are engaged in learning do so by enjoying the lecture that you loathe. Nobody is forcing anything on you. I thought we were talking about your ill informed position regarding an Anthropological issue, now the goal posts are in the middle of a different field. You're all over the place with this. As I said before, if you want to discuss the actual science regarding your Anthropological claims, I'm happy to do so.

2 Timothy 4:3,4). Bunch of entertainers tickling people's ears with nonsense/paradoxes/contradictions (these words are synonyms again and if you can't see that claiming that "nothin...is..something" is a contradiction/nonsense, really, what's left for us to talk about?).

Clearly there isn't anything left to discuss because you continue to engage in ad hominem attacks and rants as opposed to discussing in your own words what is wrong with the science.

As for your quote from Timothy(I'm assuming you meant 2 Timothy 4:3-4?), if you choose to remain willfully ignorant as to how people in these fields approach their science, that's on you. But if you think there is nobody questioning any of it when your prior example relates to a tenured Professor losing his job because someone else questioned his work then a I just don't know what to say without being rude so I'll end it there.

originally posted by: peter vlar
It's a little disingenuous to assert that science is a fraud as a whole...

It's even more disingenuous to continuously and repeatedly put that straw man in my mouth, words or comments and try to paint that picture on me. It's also propagandistic doing that (especially the repetition of that attempt).

Science is not a fraud as a whole. Stop putting or pinning that which you are doing on me; you're the one denying science in favor of myth (and referring to or viewing real science as myth, frauds and deception), plain to see to anyone who is using logic and knows what conclusions to draw when someone is continuously twisting someone elses views and position to match up with pre-programmed straw men (pre-programmed in the biased audience which only needs a little trigger for their thoughts to go along with the impression you want to give of me and what I'm talking about). And you can continue referring to magic, fiction and mythology as "science" as much as you want but I'm not going to let you get away with it, or with your twists. Science is not a fraud, and frauds aren't science. Therefore, there's no need at all to deny or object to any science/knowledge about realities/facts/certainties (which you are constantly doing with anything that is rational, even twisting it first to make it sound irrational to yourself and others, so you can dismiss it easier, without thinking rationally about it based on pre-programmed ways of thinking: 'oh, so it's all a big conspiracy' type of dismissive thoughts). Science/knowledge is a whole lot more important to me than to you since you can't even differentiate between what someone calls or presents as "science" with real science/knowledge about realities/facts.

Just keep on pretending that my comments give sufficient justification to bring up your straw man science denier that you are yourself and constantly demonstrating to those with eyes to see. Keep promoting or demonstrating your allegiance to philosophers that are promoting their philosophy that "nothing...is...something" as they claim that they're not philosophers and "philosophy is dead" when it couldn't be more popular amongst the ones that listen and accept their philosophies without question because it just happens to be sold under the marketing label "science". Who's more disingenuous, the one claiming not to be a philosopher when he's selling his philosophies or the one trying to point that out to people as they praise the value of real science over fiction and encourage to give it a try some day, change your preference.

What's also disingenuous is to pretend it's only one person lying when the mountain of deception is of equal size as your so-called mountain of evidence for your "philosophical belief system" you call "science" (as admitted by your own priest of pseudoscience and evolutionary mythology, Professor Shapiro). Culminating in a crowd of people going 'nothing = something' on ye or pretending it never happened and that the reality of the existence of that crowd says nothing about the so-called "scientific community" which in reality is used by people referring to a clique of Darwin fans and the flock that is singing the party line.

a reply to: whereislogic

So you are okay with science if it confirms your own agenda but any science that disagrees with your propoganda machine is based on lies and myths. Makes perfect sense.

a reply to: Joecanada11
yay, more projection of your own behaviour on me. Why do you deny the statement made by Professor Shapiro, evolutionary philosopher and master guru of pseudoscience when he's for once being honest about his own philosophical belief system that he taught for decades as being so-called "science"?

Now that he's being honest his words don't count as "science" anymore right? Let's talk past it some more without addressing it. Go ahead, the floor is yours, twisting time...let's see you trivialize his honest and important admittal and pretend his words don't matter in the grand scheme of things because there or so many who claim that "evolution is a fact" (as they hold the deceptive definition "change over time" or "change in allele frequencies....etc." behind their back to pretend that it is a fact by simply changing the defintion to describe a fact that doesn't provide any evidence for any of the other evolutionary philosophies being taught in state funded and controlled educational programs and propaganda sites).

a reply to: whereislogic

Who's to say he is being honest now and not before. Who's to say he hasn't become mentally ill now. Or decided to lie now in order to get attention and publicity? Apparently you are the only one who seems to know who's honest and who's lying. Apparently only you know what real science is and what is lies and myth.

You are the one who calls true science propoganda while posting a religious propaganda website like it's the truth. Typical of someone who has been indoctrinated. You say you know truth. Why is it That watchtower has been wrong about the reign of Christ in 1914, and 1925. I thought they had a monopoly on truth but apparently not.

Don't pretend like you care about science because the only time you think scientists are telling the truth is when it fits in with your religious doctrine. When it doesn't support your own propoganda you call the scientists liars and accuse hem of spreading myths.


www.jwfacts.com...

Do Jehovah's witnesses use propaganda?


freeminds.org...

a reply to: Joecanada11
Sure, suggest Shapiro might be being dishonest when he says "Darwinian evolution is... a philosphical belief system" but ignore Dawkins', Krauss' and others' deceptions when they say "evolution is a fact" or "nothing...is...something", then accuse others of cherry-picking what they view as science or honest (and keep on pretending you can't tell that "nothing...is...something" is the clearest sign of deliberate philosophical mythological deception and nonsense/contradiction/paradox/error (as opposed to what which is correct/without error/factual/true/absolute/certain/conclusive and thus when acquired and added to the mind, science/knowledge about realities/facts) one could wish for (and also a sign you can't be reasoned with and will only resort to propagandistic twists and baseless slander).

You use logic to find out who is speaking the truth and who is lying. I again encourage you to give it a try (and not cherry-picking and denying Shapiro when he's saying something that is'n't tickling your ears, but repeating his philosophical belief system and accompanying ways of thinking and argumentation because it is tickling your ears). You can start with Michael Behe's explanation of inductive reasoning compared to "wishful speculation" and "just-so stories" in this video (just-so stories are also presented as maybe-so stories, something Behe neglects to point out, the evidence that evolutionary philosophy is well...philosophy and myth supported by frauds and deception, is overwhelming, of course a person can always keep their heads in the sand regarding this evidence and then do a bit of projection when someone tries to warn the public about it):

Oh I forgot, you don't consider Behe to be an honest scientist talking about science. How convenient if you don't want to use the logic he's explaining in that presentation.

Do you have anything else in your repertoire than: "nuh-uh" > twist+projection

Dawkins, Krauss and Hawking and that clique have so much disrespect for your ability to process logic and information correctly, they aren't even bothering to hide their logical contradictions the way Trinitarians do when talking about their doctrine of the Trinity. Cause it's working fine for them the way it is. 2 Timothy 4:3,4 cannot be prevented and they are conveniently tapping into it.

originally posted by: whereislogic

It's even more disingenuous to continuously and repeatedly put that straw man in my mouth, words or comments and try to paint that picture on me. It's also propagandistic doing that (especially the repetition of that attempt).

It's not propagandist at all. If I was incorrect in the impression you give, them I will be the adult here and apologize. You do however come off as ignorant, scientifically illiterate and anti-science since you've called into question biological sciences, chemistry, genetics and physics. That doesn't leave much left for you to agree with does it?

Science is not a fraud as a whole. Stop putting or pinning that which you are doing on me; you're the one denying science in favor of myth (and referring to or viewing real science as myth, frauds and deception),

Please... Enlighten me and detail what is wrong with the science as I've asked you about before. You still won't answer that and insist on maintaining your charade and long winded rants.

plain to see to anyone who is using logic and knows what conclusions to draw when someone is continuously twisting someone elses views and position to match up with pre-programmed straw men (pre-programmed in the biased audience which only needs a little trigger for their thoughts to go along with the impression you want to give of me and what I'm talking about). And you can continue referring to magic, fiction and mythology as "science" as much as you want but I'm not going to let you get away with it, or with your twists.

Blah blah blah... Magic? Wait, isn't that how your version of god created human kind? And how fakes baby Jesus woke up from his sleepy time nap after 3 days? There your magic pixie dust right there. It's so sparkly that your unicorn is farting out Richard Simmons right now.

Science isn't about your version of logic. It's about demonstrating testable and repeatable results and then publishing that data so that other people can attempt to achieve the same results. That's got nothing to do with logic and everything t do with the scientific method. You use a similar phrase in almost all of your posts regarding logic as if it's your ace in the hole or a new catch phrase for the JW beginners club. Use the scientific method, show me where the errors are instead of focusing on parlor tricks and YouTube videos like a stage hand distracting the audience for the magician.

Science is not a fraud, and frauds aren't science. Therefore, there's no need at all to deny or object to any science/knowledge about realities/facts/certainties (which you are constantly doing with anything that is rational, even twisting it first to make it sound irrational to yourself and others, so you can dismiss it easier, without thinking rationally about it based on pre-programmed ways of thinking: 'oh, so it's all a big conspiracy' type of dismissive thoughts). Science/knowledge is a whole lot more important to me than to you since you can't even differentiate between what someone calls or presents as "science" with real science/knowledge about realities/facts.

Im sorry, but I'm not going to take the opinions of a door to door JW propagandist regarding science as gospel truth. This is one of the most delusional posts I've ever seen on ATS. My mind is literally blown by the lengths you go to to convince yourself you have a valid argument or point anywhere in this text while refusing to address the science. If it's so wrong and so not science it should be easy for you to use the science you do believe in to tear it to pieces. But no... Philosophical pseudo tirades are all you've got. Unlike you, I've studied this field extensively, have engaged in due diligence and obtained a formal degree. You should try it sometime because your refusal to use your own words to discuss what flaws you believe exist in MES is sketchy at best.

Just keep on pretending that my comments give sufficient justification to bring up your straw man science denier that you are yourself and constantly demonstrating to those with eyes to see.

95% of the members of the National Academy of Sciences disagree with you. Even that tiny percent that disagrees with peer reviewed and proven data is not in agreement with your 6000-6500 years for humans being on earth so I don't know who has their eyes on that prize outside of you and your congregation.

Keep promoting or demonstrating your allegiance to philosophers that are promoting their philosophy that "nothing...is...something" as they claim that they're not philosophers and "philosophy is dead" when it couldn't be more popular amongst the ones that listen and accept their philosophies without question because it just happens to be sold under the marketing label "science".

My allegiance is to the scientific method, not any person. Sorry but you little piggy, will have to move on to your house of sticks because you have used all your straw to prop up this non existent scenario playing out in your head.

Who's more disingenuous, the one claiming not the be a philosopher when he's selling his philosophies or the one trying to point that out to people as they praise the value of real science over fiction and encourage to give it a try some day, change your preference.

As the above quote applies to you in a hilarious twist of irony, I'm going with you are the disingenuous one here.

What's also disingenuous is to pretend it's only one person lying when the mountain of deception is of equal size as your so-called mountain of evidence for your "philosophical belief system" you call "science" (as admitted by your own priest of pseudoscience and evolutionary mythology, Professor Shapiro).

Holy run on sentence batman. What a joke. You keep accusing me of attributing beliefs and qualities to you and yet that's all you've done this entire thread. I don't have a priest of anything let alone Shapiro. He represents less than 5% of scientists who disagree with MES. Anyone who knows anything about how the scientific method works knows that you can only prove a positive. Shapiro dissents against natural selection with no proof and doesn't have any alternative that can be put forth, let alone have evidence to support it. He's grandstanding for ignoramuses who don't know the differences between the different isotopes of carbon.

Please... Tell me in your own big boy words what the errors are in Modern Evolutionary Synthesis.

Culminating in a crowd of people going 'nothing = something' on ye or pretending it never happened and that the reality of the existence of that crowd says nothing about the so-called "scientific community" which in reality is used by people referring to a clique of Darwin fans and the flock that is singing the party line.

And here we go again with moving the goal posts. Are we talking about evolution or physics? Pick one and stick to the topic sparky. Not that you are any more likely to do so than you are to attempt to dispute the science by showing the errors. The reason is the same in both cases. You are incapable of doing so.



Anytime you want to stop your proselytizing, set your goal posts in one spot and actually address the errors in the science, please do so.

a reply to: whereislogic

Because evolution is a fact. It's observable. There are hundreds of transitionary fossils in the fossil record. Darwin himself was a theologian. He had a degree in theology and believed in the same god you did. He just took the facts and evidence and presented them.

Modern evolutionary science combines many scientific disciplines. The only agenda is the one of a dying religious group trying to keep holding onto their bible when it's been proven false. I'm sorry that modern science is chipping away at your belief system or magical faith and myths but it's cold hard facts.

You are blinded by your own indoctrination. If anything goes against official JW Propaganda then it's a lie of the devil and part of a massive conspiracy. That kind or thinking is not even sane. I'm not going to waste anymore time. People see your bias and hipocracy.

a reply to: whereislogic

And your version of logic is like this.

Does it match with the the official watchtower doctrine? If yes they must be speaking the truth. If no they must be lying. That's not logic that's insanity.

Science isn't about logic it's about data,facts and testable predictions.

a reply to: Joecanada11

Well, we are talking about the logic of a faith based belief system where only 144,000 of them get into heaven but they're still actively recruiting. If I were logically running that organization, I would only want the 144,000 who are most worthy in my flock instead of more people than can get in but still receive donations from. Seems greedy and very much against Christ's law to me. But hey... I'm just a heretical Anthropologist so what do I know?

I just love the atheist fundamentalist attack structure.

I read the atheists comments
Here and again I am reminded how much they hate all science, how they deny anyone to ask questions, how they demand total faith to the man made articles of the religion ofscience.
How if you don't agree with their scientific theology you are labeled a heretic and then go about burning the one who questions at the stake

Mixing their religious atheism with science and acting as if they are the authority.

It's truly stunning how much all atheism hates all science, how the new atheistic agenda is to corrupt everything that questions its foundation.

When is the religious atheist going to learn what science is

It's an intersting enough question...

I find myself having a hard time seeing the garden of Eden on Earth... To me it existed and so did we in the Garden but it was not in this dimension...
Because as you said there was not death all things were perfect in the garden... And then there is the claim that we were driven out of the garden and it is protected by a fiery sword... Nowhere on earth is really off limits in this way...
And Satan is cursed at the same time...
So to me it's like we were sent here to Earth as exiles this is not where we were truly meant to be...
What makes me believe this is true is the promise of a new heaven and a new earth after the lifting of the veil and the return of the Lord...

Or it could mean the Earth itself existed in a different dimension or in a different state and that at this time it will be returned to its true place or renewed to its original state...

I'm going to share a dream cause I am bored and because it's kind of fitting...

Because of all the stuff I read and because I am highly lucid what I have in my thoughts often enters my dreams...

Anyway this dream is about Niberu...
The dream starts out with news on all channels talking about a second sun visible to the naked eye...
Then I am in the car with my brother and the radio is warning about the approach of this new sun and the impacts it will have on the earth... We are discussing what we should do with our families...Nothing is abnormal in the surroundings except the feeling of dread I had while looking at this second sun...
Next the bad stuff starts happening volcanic eruptions everywhere and big ones the earth is shaking everywhere floods fires etc... Then the second sun is reported to be moving away from us back towards our sun at an accelerated speed in compare to its advance...
The worst is assumed to be over...
Well this is not so... a giant cloud of iron oxide was trailing the second sun and it blankets the earth and it turns all the waters red like blood and the mass die offs starts... Also because of its magnetic attraction the Earth reals on its axis the poles flip and our natural orbit is changed... This causes the mega volcanic eruptions and Earth quakes and the earth's landmass is all changed...
The Earth grows dark from the volcanic activity I'm hiding underground I'm alone I don't know where anyone else is let alone my family...
I can't breath very well I am overwhelmed by grief...
Everything fades to black...
I find myself in space looking down over the Earth covered by a lingering black mass...
I look out towards the two suns they are getting very close together... they merge and become one... a shock wave is emitted... and all the blackness is removed from the Earth by the blast... It looks beautiful again but its changed there is hardly any ocean left...
Then I am back on Earth and everything is different but new again people I had lost to death before any of this are alive...
my missing family were all back ...
The Sun was now much larger and was now white...

Sorry couldn't help myself...