Will a baseline income change who you are?

a reply to: onequestion


It wouldn't change anyone, not even you.


It would however provide a resource to become who you are now without the resources to grow. The baseline will not cause the urge to grow and learn, that is already there and that is why you won't change.

originally posted by: Vector99

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: Vector99

Why not?

I'm not commit to either side of this one I need more information.

For a society to flourish it needs upkeep. If everyone is sitting at home getting paid, who will maintain things?

Why do you assume that if people had a say $25,000 a year base income they would just sit around?

I simply don't understand the idea of getting money for nothing. How could this money possibly just appear? I don't see how this is even a possibility without taking more money from middle class families.

originally posted by: Metallicus
I simply don't understand the idea of getting money for nothing. How could this money possibly just appear? I don't see how this is even a possibility without taking more money from middle class families.

Seriously?

You never heard of the FEDeral reserve, or fiat currency?

Money isn't a zero sum game, where for one person to win another must lose.

Everyone can win.

a reply to: Sargeras

because money is money. for some reason humans now think if the dollar or any other major currency just disappeared that cops would stop growing, solar flares would hit, cities would erupt and all kinds of things tied to money itself.

The unmotivated simply need motivation, not more money.

originally posted by: Metallicus
I simply don't understand the idea of getting money for nothing. How could this money possibly just appear? I don't see how this is even a possibility without taking more money from middle class families.

Hmm, well you have to understand that "money" itself is simply a creation, a method for bartering,

This earth actually can support 7+ billion people with no problem, it's people and greed that are the problem.

originally posted by: Vector99
a reply to: Sargeras

because money is money. for some reason humans now think if the dollar or any other major currency just disappeared that cops would stop growing, solar flares would hit, cities would erupt and all kinds of things tied to money itself.

The unmotivated simply need motivation, not more money.

But you are assuming lack of motivation is the root cause of poverty.

Which is horse #.

I am poor, but go to work 6 days a week 10 hours a day.

So does most of the other poor people I have worked with over the years.

It is lack of opportunity, not lack of motivation that I see everyday.

a reply to: onequestion

Just some thoughts.

To me the essential question is: do people need WORK or do they need INCOME?

My opinion is that they mainly need INCOME. Those without work but with income prosper, those without income but with work perish. The old legend that one who "works hard" HENCE can have a decent living is provable nonsense: go talk to the folks that have to work 2 or more jobs and still can not pay their (humble) bills. And what about those that can't work? Go talk to the elderly, the sick, the refugees.

So, work is not of any importance to an individual: money is. (Before you blow your top, hear me out).

How much income does an individual need? IMHO sufficient to not make him stand out in the crowd. So, sufficient to cover the costs of housing, clothing, transport, education and health. And nowadays, it should also suffice to connect him/her to the Internet, buy a fridge and a TV, just to name some goods that used to be seen as "luxuries" - but aren't anymore and haven't been for a long time.

Suppose we'd give everybody sufficient income to pay for all that (or, perhaps, provide some services for "free"). What would people do? I mean, they don't have to WORK anymore then - would they all sit on the sofa and eat chips?

Nope. Because sitting on a sofa and eat chips (or whatever) is only fun if you don't do it all the time. People need activity, need to belong, they are mostly social beings. So, they need the notion of being wanted, being useful. That won't change when you provide a baseline income.

In my case, I probably would do what I do now, as I like what I do. But yes, there would be change: I would probably take out more time to do things that are seen as "unprofitable" in our current society (but useful to society nevertheless), e.g. help older people to maintain living in their own house a little longer, deliver groceries for those that can't do that themselves, read books to children - or write books for them, do maintenance of old (unprofitable..) buildings (in my country we have a lot of mills that aren't "economically profitable" anymore), bake a cake and give it away whilst serving coffee to go with it, teach others, and be taught more often by others, just to name a few things.

Would society change? I guess so. What you are and what you do would be more important than what you earn.

Would I change? Nope. Just what I'd do would change. Not much, just a tad, but sufficient to make the difference between a social, safe society and the current rat race.

I'm not sure, BTW, if a basic income is the best way to achieve this. You'd still need additional funds to help certain people, e.g. handicapped people, who'd need more than a basic income. Part of what they need will be provided by volunteers (whom then have the time to do such work), but that does not cover all the costs.

A society WITHOUT money would of course be the better choice. But we, drones, lead by greedy bastards, can't cope with that, alas..

a reply to: Sargeras

if you actually work and give a # about your job you will see opportunities for advancement. Actually you will actively seek them. There is a big difference between being handed a check and working for it. I made myself the ugliest company shirt to wear, and no chance in hell i would ask my guys to wear it, but it does it's job.

I dunno, I guess i'm kind of cynical, I am extremely familiar with the finances of the food industry. It definitely could pay more w/o seeing a single hiccup. No one owns just one store, well i cannot say no one, because those people do exist.

What drives me up a wall is expecting every person to not be a complete idiot. lots of them exist, and while they may have a niche somewhere, it usually was never in customer service. Give them a set assignment dealing with no people? It almost always got done.

No PC here, some people are just dumb (I don't mean autistic individuals) but that doesn't mean you can't work with them. If someone working full-time isn't worth a fair living wage, you should eliminate that position and do it yourself, if you can't, find another business.

a reply to: onequestion

What do you mean by a baseline income?

In the UK we have a right to social security, an income from government so one can live...basically something like that?

Is it literally just food stamps for the unemployed in the US?

Personally I see no problem with a baseline or basic income.Money is the only real currency so realisically everyone needs something to survive. Every human has a right to a livable home, food, water and security. With finance being so important in this world.

As for the question for where that money comes from.... Where do US food stamps come from or the food and drink the users use.

Another point I'd like to make is that enough food and water already exists on the planet for allbut not financially. Enough man-made money exists for all to live wealthy but money isn't distributed fairly. The key is what we as humanity give credit to and as of the moment greed is the motivator. We already have enough resources for all to thrive the big question is why we are not thriving together and it is greed.

I see no problem with financial security. Imagine if when Bill Gates died he distributed his wealth fairly across all Americans, that alone would secure a peaceful life for many for a while but then again it's not needed because we already have enough resources for all to thrive never mind survive.

Hell, machines are capable of replacing the majority of human jobs already, we don't to keep people in jobs.

I don't think a base income would change who I am.

However, do think it would help me with self-actualization and fulfilling my long-term goals.

We're pretty good about living within our means. My disability income is a quarter of what most people receive and it's hard to save for tools when it's either sock aside money or have enough to pay rent, pay bills and eat for the month. I'm grateful for the roof over my head and opportunity to better myself, but it's been a slow running, trying to make ends meet, maintain my health and stay proactive towards personal goals.

I've always been a self starter, hard worker and take strong personal pride in my initiative and dedication.

We can't afford a vehicle, which limits being able to volunteer locally or returning to higher education, so wrestling with a feeling of futility and depression on top of what I already deal with has been a more than it's fair share of a challenge.

I'm hanging in there though, and I have hope for the future.
You kinda have to, when it's all you've really got.

Maybe instead of a flat dispersal for everyone, there could be a past and present history assessment to determine candidacy for a baseline income? Help those in genuine need and with tangible potential and clear marked goals, rather than just give handouts to those who would squander funds foolishly and selfishly on things that would give the program a bad reputation?

I mean, you have to admit, there are a lot of people who would waste or abuse such an initiative, but then again, we are already painfully aware of the abuses in the already existing social programs. Would a baseline income perhaps negate the need for that level of criminal activity?

It's definitely something to think about from several angles.

a reply to: RAY1990

One of the reasons why I asked another poster what his hobbies were was because I assume with more time to devote to his hobbies he may master one of them after enough time.

That mastery may lead to invention.

Imagine a world where people are more inclined to master their art and it leads to invention?

That's in a perfect world but I could really put some time into my hobbies and create something amazing.

That's in a perfect world but I could really put some time into my hobbies and create something amazing.

Sometimes people who can prove they are capable of creating something amazing, can get grants to try. It happens all the time. Why not look into it. Google something like "how to get a government Grant". Mostly for agencies, but individuals can get them too.

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: RAY1990

One of the reasons why I asked another poster what his hobbies were was because I assume with more time to devote to his hobbies he may master one of them after enough time.

That mastery may lead to invention.

Imagine a world where people are more inclined to master their art and it leads to invention?

That's in a perfect world but I could really put some time into my hobbies and create something amazing.

Why would you have more time to devote to your hobbies unless you want to give up whatever is using that time today and the associated financial benefit it brings? In countries that have introduced this (European, can't remember which but I think it's a Scandinavian one), it's a supplement more than anything to people already in work and if I remember correctly the equivalent of a minimum wage version of social benefit for those not in work.

Question from me though, would it be considered a taxable income in your view?

a reply to: uncommitted

Well why would you tax it that makes no sense?

I'm assuming this is not a privately owned currency system like we have now.

How the currency is managed and controlled I don't know. I need someone else to jump in here and bring their knowledge into it.

I'm assuming not everyone is going to work as the point is not everyone needs to work.

Think about it for a second. With 100 million working age Americans out of the household people who want to work will. I'm also operating under the assumption that people don't a want to sit on the couch all day doing nothing for 20+ years people will eventually he off their ass and do something.

originally posted by: onequestion


Would a baseline income change who you are?

What is a "baseline" income? Sorry I've never heard of one before.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Let's just say for a hypothetical enough to buy food shelter with maybe a small portion left over for discretionairy income( by small I mean really small $200 ) just enough to drive a small capitalist based local economy to encourage small business and consumerism.

a reply to: onequestion

Oh right........ Makes sense, appologies for not hearing it before but I'm British.

If you can earn a little bit more what's wrong with it, then you can have a hobby or go and see somewhere on Planet Earth. Money is a good thing surely? It makes life easier and the food is better.

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter
If you can earn a little bit more what's wrong with it, then you can have a hobby or go and see somewhere on Planet Earth. Money is a good thing surely? It makes life easier and the food is better.

My main premise is that people sent needed anymore so we mine as well "mine" boredom for cultural and technological advancements.