I just had my life threatened debating ideas within Islam!

I was having a peaceful debate, via Skype with an Australian Palestinian man, and I brought up Muhammad's child brides, and this man decided at that point in our debate to threaten my life, first he said, " I'll smash your head through glass, if you bring that point up" then he said,"I'll throw you from the rooftops ", at which point I came unglued, and laid into him heavily, others were listening to our debate, the debate ended at that point and others tried to apologize for him suggesting he was just attempting to trigger me and used poor form, of course he made no such claim! I got so mad I almost threw up. How can we have any conversation, build any bridge, if there are no go zones in debate, that equate to death threats? I'm not making any larger points about Islam here, I am venting because this # is bull#! Sometimes, I think I need to take a break from this # lol.

Now, I will make some broader points, my friend from Egypt regularly talks about death for apostates, and that they are jailed in Egypt (not killed) he talks about jailing homosexuals, he talks about, children can be married and had sex with (and is regularly done) just after puberty, on these points there are no bridges, there is no compromise, however this is important, him by himself he is harmless, in fact I would gladly have him over for dinner, he is goofy (small statured) and often makes me laugh, he has been threatened for the way he talks with westerners, so he is even in danger. He calls Isis apostates yet he espouses extreme beliefs, often I'll tell him," the only difference my friend is that you haven't picked up a weapon". What I am finding as I try to extend and understand, is just how imbedded and sick these extremist ideologies are, I do not hate the individual, but I am well aware until reformation and separation of church and states takes place our cultures will clash.

This # pissed me off tonight so there's my rant.

a reply to: TechniXcality

Buy him a plane ticket, let him come on down to Texas.

Bet he wouldn't bust a grape in a food fight.

a reply to: TechniXcality

a reply to: Lysergic

Right, LOL i swear i haven't been that heated in while. I even tried to give him a backdoor saying,"don't do that" and continued on at which point he threatened me again. Then my head went through the roof and told him," there ain't nothing but air and opportunity, whenever you are ready" and it was over.

a reply to: Lysergic

And to be quite frank that's why i prefer ATS because its moderated, or in person - I wonder if he would have taken that position in person.

Breaking news!!!

"People on the internet act like tough guys, while hiding behind a keyboard!"

This just in!!


"Water found to be wet!"

Lol

Sadly it's the Internet. Honestly, I don't think I ever make it more than 3-4 days without getting death threats from somebody online. Just dropping a very passive comment on a news site or Youtube vid almost guarantees some yahoo will chime in with something toxic - and those toxic comments usually manifest as the most extreme statement the person can come up with. Usually either "kill yourself" or "I am going to find you and kill you".

I'm not trying to downplay religious extremism at all. It's something that I absolutely abhor no matter what name the extremist uses to refer to their God. Christian, Muslim, Jew, Janist, worshippers of My Little Pony - it matters not. If they see themselves as superior and feel obligated to lash out at others in the name of any God? They suck. Period.

However - when it comes to the 'Net? Well that just lets stupid be really, really stupid without much risk of repercussion.

a reply to: TechniXcality

No point arguing with a True Believer.

They don't use facts or logic, they use "faith" lol.

a reply to: TechniXcality

I know a professor who would love to talk to you about Islam and he's really critical of the Salafists. Many of his comments regarding Islamism is considered 'Politically Incorrect" by the left.

By the way during the Iranian Revolution, he was almost captured by the Islamists.

a reply to: Hefficide

Yes, I agree and I use skype to try to reach out to other cultures, I debate with poise and decorum even there, which is why I am very respected among the groups I am in. I have talked to this person previously via voice on cam, with a group, and no such threats were made. Yes I know its the internet, its just in combination of arguing extreme beliefs I am getting death threats, it almost makes it impossible for you to discuss, which is what I want - a dialogue. Guess you cant expect any less on the internet, unless its moderated ( like here), how unfortunate.

double

a reply to: Lysergic

Yea seems so brother, Sometimes I dont even know why i try

I'll be honest here. Sometimes you come off really abrasive and intentionally disrespectful when it comes to Islam. The worse part is one minute you'll seem polite, cool, and respectful; and it seems like we'll finally have a good conversation about Islam. Then out of nowhere, it's like some hateful crap comes out that instantly pushes buttons.

At first I thought you were just being a douchebag. But now I'm starting to think you either don't know or simply don't respect the boundaries of Muslims. It would help a lot more if you understand this basic fact: Many Muslims hold the Prophets and God closer to them than their own families. And they hold their families closer than most people I've known in America. So if you wouldn't make a specific comment about someone's wife or kids, don't make it about the Prophets or God (or you'll get a similar response because it's typically "crossing the line").

Not that I'm saying it's right, of course. Just saying that the better you understand others, the better you can communicate with them. Even though I've had heated debates and arguments with many scholars & representatives from other Islamic denominations, it's never come down to violence even once. But that's because we respect each others' boundaries, even when we disagree with each others' points. That simple tip can work miracles.

From now on, maybe you should be direct and ask the people what their boundaries are. Just be upfront. Remind them that you come from a different culture where we have "freedom of speech", so your "red lines" might not match up with theirs. Then respect their boundaries as long as they respect yours. Doing something simple like that before the debate/conversation starts could prevent incidences like this.

And btw, a lot of Muslims will get mad if you basically call the Prophet Muhammad a pedo.

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
And btw, a lot of Muslims will get mad if you basically call the Prophet Muhammad a pedo.

We can only go from what it tells us in the Koran.

Consummating a marriage with a 9 yr old, while it mightve been all good back then, it isn't so much now.

Xtians don't seem to get that upset if I said, ohh Jesus is a Zombie.

So really, it sounds like a personal issue with them, they can choose to be upset, or not to be.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

There is no question whether he had a child bride that is not debated this is factual, her age is debated up to 10 - 12 years old.


en.wikipedia.org...

Aisha's age at the time she was married to Muhammad has been of interest since the earliest days of Islam, and references to her age by early historians are frequent.[11] According to Sunni scriptural Hadith sources, Aisha was six or seven years old when she was married to Muhammad with the marriage not being consummated until she had reached puberty at the age of nine or ten years old.[10][11][12][13][14][23][24][25] For example, Sahih al-Bukhari states: Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death). — Sahih al-Bukhari, 7:62:64 Some traditional sources disagree. Ibn Hisham wrote in his biography of Muhammad that she may have been ten years old at the consummation.[11] Ibn Khallikan, as well as Ibn Sa'd al-Baghdadi citing Hisham ibn Urwah, record that she was nine years old at marriage, and twelve at consummation.[26] Sadakat Kadri points out that the recording of Aisha's age by Ibn Sa'd and Bukhari (though the hadith was Sahih) came a couple of centuries after the Prophet's death.[27] Child marriage was not uncommon in many places at the time, Arabia included. It often served political purposes, and Aisha's marriage to Muhammad would have had a political connotation.[26]

And since you are discussing what you think about me - from being a deuchebag too just generally non respecting of Muslims, I think you are an apologist, I think you show up in any thread about Islam and you tell everyone how ignorant they are, you are almost pointless to talk to because you don't think you are wrong. I wonder what the philosopher and debater Sam Harris is to you? I wonder if he is a duechbag and ignorant. I hold myself with decorum and mutual respect and in doing so I expect us not to have to go fist to cuffs, or my life to be threatened. It's no surprise in a thread where I am ranting about someones lack of tolerance, you show up to apologize for them, anyone with half a brain should know exactly where you stand. Muslim = right Critic = wrong, the sad part in my view Muslim equals neither right or wrong but their ideologies absolutely should be challenged in particular the fundamentalists.

a reply to: TechniXcality

Why bother debating such topics with such people?

If one feels its necessary, why not just stick with modern day issues of their integration into our way of life and tolerance on their part to our values, culture and traditions and why do they choose to come here rather than stay and fight their oppressors in their own countries etc.

I'm afraid I cannot see the point of debating something that is alleged to have occurred way back in the dim distant past where nothing can be proven anyway?

originally posted by: Azureblue
a reply to: TechniXcality


I'm afraid I cannot see the point of debating something that is alleged to have occurred way back in the dim distant past where nothing can be proven anyway?

It's okay, other people do.

Imagine if nobody did, and everyone continued the lies.

So whats the cut off point of debating things in the past, only recent as in 5 years?

a reply to: Azureblue

because in order to understand nuance you must go into the details. My friend in Egypt says child brides are acceptable and encouraged, this is what we were discussing and Sam (from Australia) was arguing this point that its cultural ( just like we introduce ourselves a certain way, they marry young children), but I countered with- If you are to emulate the prophet, and he himself took child brides, than how is this cultural this is religious, at which point my life was threatened. There's absolutely reason to discuss these things, because their are many practicing these abhorrent things, where I refuse to build a bridge or compromise. When it comes to the killing(or jailing) of apostates, the killing and jailing of homosexuals, and the taking of child brides, sorry I cant bridge that gap, can you?

originally posted by: Lysergic

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
And btw, a lot of Muslims will get mad if you basically call the Prophet Muhammad a pedo.

We can only go from what it tells us in the Koran.

Consummating a marriage with a 9 yr old, while it mightve been all good back then, it isn't so much now.

Xtians don't seem to get that upset if I said, ohh Jesus is a Zombie.

So really, it sounds like a personal issue with them, they can choose to be upset, or not to be.

Oh really? Well please show me where the Qur'an says that. I even have the entire Qur'an in my sig to help your search. 1. It's Hadith that say that she was 9 yrs old, not the Qur'an. And 2, there are extremely volatile debates within Islamic scholarship about her actual age, with her age being accepted as somewhere between 9 and 19. This has been debated by Muslim scholars since those Hadith were first recorded. Here's what a good article about it has to say on it:

In addition, some modern Muslim scholars have more recently cast doubt on the veracity of the saying, or hadith, used to assert Aisha's young age. In Islam, the hadith literature (sayings of the prophet) is considered secondary to the Qur'an. While the Qur'an is considered to be the verbatim word of God, the hadiths were transmitted over time through a rigorous but not infallible methodology. Taking all known accounts and records of Aisha's age at marriage, estimates of her age range from nine to 19.

Because of this, it is impossible to know with any certainty how old Aisha was. What we do know is what the Qur'an says about marriage: that it is valid only between consenting adults, and that a woman has the right to choose her own spouse. As the living embodiment of Islam, Muhammad's actions reflect the Qur'an's teachings on marriage, even if the actions of some Muslim regimes and individuals do not.

The truth about Muhammad and Aisha

And here's a better article about it (warning, very detailed): Age of Aisha (ra) at time of marriage

And here's what a basic wikipedia article has to say about it (here):

Some traditional sources disagree. Ibn Hisham wrote in his biography of Muhammad that she may have been ten years old at the consummation.[11] Ibn Khallikan, as well as Ibn Sa'd al-Baghdadi citing Hisham ibn Urwah, record that she was nine years old at marriage, and twelve at consummation.[26] Sadakat Kadri points out that the recording of Aisha's age by Ibn Sa'd and Bukhari (though the hadith was Sahih) came a couple of centuries after the Prophet's death.[27] Child marriage was not uncommon in many places at the time, Arabia included. It often served political purposes, and Aisha's marriage to Muhammad would have had a political connotation.[26]

Muslim authors who calculate Aisha's age based on the more detailed information available about her sister Asma estimate that she was over thirteen and perhaps between seventeen and nineteen at the time of her marriage.[28] Muhammad Niknam Arabshahi, an Iranian Islamic scholar and historian, has considered six different approaches to determining Aisha'a age and concluded that she was engaged in her late teens.[29] Using the age of Fatimah as a reference point, the Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement scholar Muhammad Ali has estimated that Aisha was over ten years old at the time of marriage and over fifteen at the time of its consummation.[30]

American historian Denise Spellberg has reviewed Islamic literature on Aisha's virginity, age at marriage and age when the marriage was consummated and speculates that Aisha's youth might have been exaggerated to exclude any doubt about her virginity.[11] Spellberg states, "Aisha's age is a major pre-occupation in Ibn Sa'd where her marriage varies between six and seven; nine seems constant as her age at the marriage's consummation." She notes one exception in Ibn Hisham's biography of the Prophet, which suggests the age of consummation may have been when Aisha was age 10, summarizing her review with the note that "these specific references to the bride's age reinforce Aisha's pre-menarcheal status and, implicitly, her virginity. They also suggest the variability of Aisha's age in the historical record."[11] Early Muslims regarded Aisha's youth as demonstrating her virginity and therefore her suitability as a bride of Muhammad. This issue of her virginity was of great importance to those who supported Aisha's position in the debate of the succession to Muhammad. These supporters considered that as Muhammad's only virgin wife, Aisha was divinely intended for him, and therefore the most credible regarding the debate.[31]

This is why many Muslims get angry when non-Muslims start saying this. Because you literally don't know what you're talking about, much less recognize that different denominations and schools of thought have wildly different accounts of these issues. This is also why some Muslims won't care if you say it while others will get pissed. It literally goes with my earlier post of "the better you understand others, the better you can communicate with them".

Edit to Add: Ironically, I'm one of the Muslims that doesn't get mad about it because it has no bearing on my religious beliefs. But I do have a problem with people attributing things to the Qur'an which aren't in it, hence my response to your accusation.

It is admirable that you such a curious mind. Unfortunately cultural and religious beliefs, when encountered by questioning, often quickly turn defensive. When you hit too close to home and they are backed into a corner all they can do is fight. Hence, all the tribes fight for their god and beliefs-it's really all they have usually being from a third world country.

An American, especially, should expect a strong push back because a third world citizen growing up in poverty only has their religion to cling to for hope of a brighter future.

I guess the extreme difference in values, like child brides (and there are so many) is so offensive to us that it is very hard to discuss on any level. It is safe to assume that even an open-minded person can find the other culture so abhorrent that we communicate eventually with pure disgust and then its all over.

Violence is usually the end result when that communication is broken and there is no place to go.

Sadly, we can't share placing our values aside. We are human and fortunately a little more evolved and that threatens the less fortunate and their "religions."