The Syndrome filmmakers Meryl Goldsmith and Susan Goldsmith Debunking Shaken Baby Syndrome: AMA!

In regards to neck injuries though. I'm with Buzzy in that regard, anyways. I think that testing, especially with "crash test" styled dummies could be heavily flawed. Children, especially infants, are amazingly resilient and almost "elastic" like at times.

You know how you see kids take falls and such and think, "damn that would have killed an adult"...? It's like that.
I can imagine having a brain injury without a neck injury, but more from falls and the like, not necessarily shaking. However, it is possible, I suppose. The testing though, I think the models were probably flawed in many ways.

I can't, however, imagine a TBI induced by shaking without external bruising though. I just can't imagine how you would hold something as fragile as an infant and shake it that hard without grasping it hard as well, leaving obvious bruising. Just doesn't make sense, to me at least.

a reply to: geezlouise

Thank you but there is a reason why I told the story. Please read some more.....and remember what I said..."I wanted to be punished".....

Skip forward in my life. I am now a young mother of 3 children between the ages of 3 years and another 3 months old. I have just left my abusive husband and I have no family to help me. I am stressed, overworked, overwhelmed and depressed.

My first 2 babies were dream babies who ate, pooped, giggled and slept through the night. Did get so lucky with the third. The third was clingy, crying and woke often at night (probably a reflection of my own emotional state).

One night, a night that lives in my memory, she just would not stop crying and go to sleep. She kept me up until about 3 am. Then she woke me up at 4 am. I stood beside her crib looking at this screaming baby. I had never ever refused to pick up a crying baby in my life but I was so tired. I just wanted her to stop crying so I could sleep. I couldn't bring her to my bed because by then, I had learned that co-sleeping was a risk factor in SIDS and I couldn't take the chance but God help me, I was at the end of my rope.

I leaned over, hoping to comfort her by touch and voice. That did not work. I found myself with my hands on each side of her head, pushing on the mattress, harder and harder, until she was slightly bouncing. Then I heard a stern voice in my head. It was yelling "what the hell are you doing".

Of course, I stopped immediately. I left the room. Left her crying but safe in her crib and just walked away. I knew that at that moment, I was capable of hurting her. I walked out the back door and sat on the steps and cried myself for about 15 minutes until I was calmer.

Then I just went back to care for my child.

Now imagine, just for a minute, that my baby was crying because she was sick. And when I woke up in the morning, she was unresponsive and brain-damaged because of an infection. A fever that spiked in the night while I was sleeping.

Would I not want to be punished for my actions? Would I not confess that I "shook" the baby?

We are all human beings and tend to react in exactly the same ways in given situations. Any mother would feel shame and guilt for losing their patience with their baby. And who among us has not! But if something happens just after such an incident .....well I would be ready to be confess and locked up! Wouldn't you?

Its called being human and normal. But as a society, we don't allow people to commit suicide and we shouldn't participate in false convictions/imprisonment either.

PS. My daughter is a fine woman with a son of her own now.

Tired of Control Freaks

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Too many idiots out there (not here) would see that sentence and jump to the conclusion that shaking a baby might be a fine way to get it to stop crying after all.

Those same idiots don't read and don't care about your opinion or any other, scientifically grounded or not. Not sure what you don't understand about that one.
Those same idiots are the ones who have emotional outbursts and shake a crying baby, not because "they think it's a good way to make them stop crying" but because....well, emotional outburst...rage and such.

All the scientific fact in the world is not going to stop that ilk and I think you know that. If you don't, you really need to think on that.

Are we supposed to just cater to those "idiots" and start making every piece of literature "idiot proof"? Seriously?

......
Having said that, don't jump me before reading my other comments here where I have agreed with you in some ways.

a reply to: TiredofControlFreaks

My goodness that's a horrible event to have experienced!! I'm sorry that happened to you. It was clearly not your fault.
But yes, people DO shake babies. SIDS is real, too.

Some babies die. Some parents shake their babies.

I, too, felt shame and nearly didn't bring up my own experience - I used to do daycare in my home, too - and often wondered what would happen if some tragedy occurred on my watch. I know people get accused wrongly and their lives get ruined.

That is a matter of the justice system, not the fact that shaking a baby causes damage whether or not the "neck is broken."

I really have to leave this thread, though, before my outspokenness gets me shushed forever from ATS. I do not mean to be contrary just to troll or cause trouble. I am an advocate for babies and children, and always will be.

Forgive yourself, you did nothing wrong, and you did not cause your nephew's death.

a reply to: Jakal26

I saw your comments. No 'jumping' to pre-empt. I appreciate your feedback.

Yes, some idiots should not be allowed to have children. I am also a writer and editor, Jakal, and wording is something all on its own. It is not difficult to phrase things in an ambiguous way, just to get a rise out of someone.

You all carry on now. I'm out.

a reply to: TiredofControlFreaks

I'm glad that your daughter is alive and healthy!

I want to try to let you know that I am personally experienced with unspeakable guilt and shame do to my own trauma's... and I understand how it can turn into a self-serving prophecy, how anyone would want to punish themselves and imprison themselves. I'm so glad you've shared your story today, it was an easy read and you've displayed a certain level of self-awareness that feels so healthy and true and pure.

I want to add that I'm glad BuzzyWigs shared her story, too. It kind of all makes sense now.

We all respond differently to our trauma's but I think we can all still meet somewhere in the middle, in the places where we were hurt once. Kinda sad it has to be that way but, it is what it is.

Much love.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

you've been out...for...what...4th time in this thread...?

Dont get me wrong...but it's getting ridiculous. Either stay out or keep on commenting.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Buzzywigs

I brought up my own experiences, not to get sympathy, but to show you how people might "confess" to something that never really happened in the face of harm that their child has suffered. Obviously, bouncing a baby a inch off a mattress would never injure the child.

I agree with you. People shake babies! And babies get broken necks, bruises or have their heads accidently hit a hard object.

Some people smother their babies with pillows, hoping that it will be passed off as SIDS. Some babies die of SIDS.

Some people beat their babies and babies get broken legs and ribs and organ damage. And some babies break their legs accidentally.

The makers of this film do not deny that child abuse occurs. What reasonable person could possibly deny it!

But the justice system is not supposed to convict people without evidence "beyond a reasonable doubt".

Hysteria put many parents of SIDS babies in jail and destroyed many lives. Hysteria over ritual satanic abuse also put a large number of people in jail and destroyed many lives. Shaken baby appears to subject to the same hysteria.

Tired of Control Freaks

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

It is not difficult to phrase things in an ambiguous way, just to get a rise out of someone.

Well, if that's the case with this OP and their film (which I didn't watch) then it certainly did a number on you.
You tend to respond out of an emotional knee jerk kind of opinion place rather than with unbiased clarity, which is really what is needed here.

You keep going "out of this thread" but you're still here. (Don't worry, I've done the same myself...so, no judgement from me).....but perhaps if you cannot think about and discuss this without the emotional attachment it would be best if you did carry on somewhere else, though as I said, I admire the persistence when it's close to home.

Emotional replies are really getting this discussion nowhere.

a reply to: TiredofControlFreaks

But the justice system is not supposed to convict people without evidence "beyond a reasonable doubt".

ding ding ding...we have a winner. Buzzy feels that there can be no reasonable doubt in such cases...since science is settled.

From my standpoint...if the baby does not appear to have any external bruising or marks...it would be rather difficult to exclude reasonable doubt...as any person knows...grabbing something and shaking it...will leave a mark on the spot where the hold is. Maybe not in 100 % cases...it depends on the hold. But can you get angry...shake your baby...and in that anger...be careful not to induce body bruising ?

There is reasonable doubt here...but alas...science is settled.

A bit off the topic itself, but are the OPs coming back or what?
Seems they just threw out some kind of "teaser" and then disappeared. While I'm glad they actually responded with some clarity on their positions (unlike another recent AMA here) I am beginning to wonder if all these AMAs aren't just some marketing tactic and I don't like that, tbh.

Did the OPs pay to have this AMA up?
They talk about money made by the SBS "industrial complex" but aren't they in the business of money making on this issue as well?
Are all AMAs of the future going to be these little tidbits and nothing more?

I really have to question the motives of the OPs here. I mean, their responses (at times) almost feel....well, scripted. Strange, almost like they had these copy and paste answers already in place. A bit redundant with some of the responses, then nothing more? Idk....it just "feels" a bit funky to me.

I'm glad the issue is being brought to light, don't get me wrong. If there are indeed innocent people being convicted due to faulty "theory" rather than sound science, it needs to be discussed and righted....but when those that claim to care about "innocent victims of established" whatever.....and in the same breath seek to make money from it, I start getting bad vibes.

....some of the recent discussion on Andrew Wakefield comes to mind. Some accusing him of simply seeking to make his own money...etc etc.
This feels a lot like that when I really sit back and think about it.

Are these AMAs the way ATS is getting away from a "subscription service"? Idk, but if I'm being honest I have to question that.

a reply to: Jakal26

Did the OPs pay to have this AMA up?

well...now that you mentioned it. SO did bring back paypal donations recently.

a reply to: MarioOnTheFly

What about this scenario....
The baby is laying on a soft bed and isn't really clutched by the one shaking it....
What if the person has their hands on the bed, either side of the baby, and is violently shaking the bed itself? The neck would be supported to some extent, perhaps keeping a neck injury at bay....and the brain is still moving back and forth inside the skull with enough force to cause a TBI?

There would be no bruising in that case, because the baby wasn't actually being held.
....just some thoughts and a possible scenario...

a reply to: MarioOnTheFly

Well, perhaps I shouldn't bring that up in this thread, but I think it's imperative to discuss if we are going to be real about this subject and get to the heart of the matter.
We have to question the motives of the makers of this film as well. Are they seeking to make money or do they care more about the innocent, wrapped up and tied down by some corrupt system.

I have no doubts it's possible that such an "industrial complex" exists. It's just, I have to question all sides...because, well....people and their agendas aren't always as pure at heart as they initially seem.

....the last two AMAs have seemed to me to be a marketing scheme. I would not doubt a bit that they paid to have this content put in front of us here.

However, that being said, I still appreciate the discussion because I have learned quite a bit about an issue that I was not all that familiar with and this discussion has potential. So.....I'm a bit "torn".

a reply to: Jakal26

LOL - tried it. Didn't work. mattresses don't really compress all that much!

Tired of Control Freaks

a reply to: TiredofControlFreaks

I disagree. Not all beds are the same. In a violent spurt of anger with all that adrenaline pumping? It wouldn't take much. It doesn't have to compress a lot, just back and forth quickly. That would make the brain shift around inside the skull.
Lay an item on a soft bed and bounce the bed, what happens? It jumps around......that motion could no doubt cause TBI, I would imagine.

Again, it doesn't have to be a lot of compression, just a really quick "back and forth" motion that moves the brain in the skull.

..........
ETA: I tried it, with my laptop, just for the sake of it, on my own bed. With a few "bounces" I can nearly jump it off the bed. Almost trampoline like.
Is that motion not enough to cause a TBI?
Idk, tbh, that's why I am asking and just a scenario I was thinking about where bruising might not be present.

a reply to: Jakal26

well...in order to produce any kind of brain trauma in such a scenario...the bed would need to be rather bouncy in order for your trusts to lift it off the bed....at least I think so.

a reply to: Jakal26

We have to question the motives of the makers of this film as well. Are they seeking to make money or do they care more about the innocent, wrapped up and tied down by some corrupt system. I have no doubts it's possible that such an "industrial complex" exists. It's just, I have to question all sides...because, well....people and their agendas aren't always as pure at heart as they initially seem.

I completely agree on this man. The AMA was strange to say the least. We can never be too certain.

a reply to: Jakal26

interesting thought! But unless someone thought that bouncing a baby on the mattress would be a really good way to commit the perfect murder, the story would be presented as evidence in court.

The parent would pretend they were just "playing" with the baby as self-defence.

Tired of Control Freaks

a reply to: TiredofControlFreaks

Hysteria put many parents of SIDS babies in jail and destroyed many lives.

Indeed it does. Perhaps my closest ties to the issue.
A friend of mine had an infant that died from SIDS. They were investigated because when the EMTs responded there was a cannabis roach in the ashtray in the kitchen (the babies room was on the other side of the house and they didn't smoke inside, it was just laid there when they came in)....baby was 5 or 6 months, I think.

They were investigated and borderline harassed and accused of awful things, even though there were multiple people (family) in the house when this occurred that attested to the fact that said friend and his wife put the baby to bed, hours later went to check on him and he was dead. They did nothing to that baby and were good parents. The hysteria stemmed from that one roach in the ashtray and they were painted as "drug addicts" because of it, thus "drug addict" = child abuser/killer to the hysterical cops and CPS workers....

Later, SIDS was determined to be the cause. They were not jailed, but the experience was very traumatic and they were never really quite the same after that. I've no idea what happened to them in the last 8 years or so, I lost contact....

...just adding to say that yes, the hysteria, at times can be very real regarding stuff like this. Emotions rule over reason at times.