Are there limits to free will?

Where did I call anyone a 'liar' outright?

Here.

you either lied, or are not responsible

Since responsibility or the lack of it do not determine truth or falsehood, you called me a liar. Outright.

Hold tight to that security blanket of denial, junior. Maybe it will keep the monsters under the bed away at night.

originally posted by: Astyanax

Where did I call anyone a 'liar' outright?

Here.

you either lied, or are not responsible

Since responsibility or the lack of it do not determine truth or falsehood, you called me a liar. Outright.

Hold tight to that security blanket of denial, junior. Maybe it will keep the monsters under the bed away at night.

By Your own admission, You are not responsible - that's Your tack...if You 'chose' to think(?) I said 'blah blah blah is a liar' (which is not what I wrote - and therefore is completely wrong), that's Your prerogative...

...and just for the record...I'm pushing 60...'junior' would be relevant if You were older...and again, You would have no way of knowing this...

...security blanket...pleeeez pffft...

Å99

Freewill inside the confines of personal choices you are able to make obviously has no boundries...
Otherwise you would not have freewill...
And would be living a script or following a program following a path set before you...
What does create limits to freewill are your moral boundaries...religious convictions...manners...etc...
These limits are also oddly enough freewill however...
Because you choose which of these matter when implying them...
Using your freewill to do so...

a reply to: 5StarOracle

Not all scripts or paths are as easily recognisable as you imply, though. Many times, we are pushed into taking certain paths or following certain scripts in order to arrive at an outcome that we, seemingly, will.

For example, say I buy a cabinet from the store that comes with many parts and compartments. Unfortunately, it seems the instruction booklet was forgotten and I would have to rely on my own knowledge to assemble the cabinet. After 1 hour of intense work has passed, I finally place the last screw in and stand back. The cabinet looks exactly the same as it appears on the box.

A minute later, I discover the instruction booklet was included after all, but fell out in the other room while I was moving the box. After examining the booklet, I realise that the steps I took were bang on with the recommended ones outlined in the booklet and everything was done correctly.

a reply to: Dark Ghost

Sometimes you have no real choices...
Can you build a puzzle by putting the pieces where they do not belong?
Freewill has little to do with common sense...
Freewill is what we use when real choices must be made as options are available...
Also in the scenario you provided as an example freewill would still have been imparted while deciding the steps in the process...
Had you chosen to progress out of order you may have found yourself having to take a few things apart to complete the project...
At which time you may have used your freewill to give up or seek out the missing instructions...

originally posted by: ausername
From the present looking at the past there is NO free will. In the present there is the illusion of unlimited free will. You can't change your past, you can change your present and your future IF you already know your future with absolute certainty.

Past is simply a conglomerate of instances that an ego ID self clings to as a personal event unique to them... everyone alive has drawn breath and exhaled, yet no its my breath... separate all of these "individual" memories of experience in time and poof never alone nor separate except experience in which has not yet risen in the experiencing moment called the ever present future.

The ego self grasping as a self evident existing being has a compulsion to affirm eachothers existance as either separate or one of cohesion in relatible experience. instead of just random contact of experience, one or society as a part or majority accepts as a reality. remove all of that ego grasping as these events has conditioned? Then there is no past present nor future, just varied forms of contact with intention based on past conditions these actions of intention whether thought form to be carried out can be either conditioned in a self as positive negative or nuetral forming what appears as a solid separate existing self.

But beyond that ignorance... who is there to suffer be happy starve or be fed? When all are one this makes for a moment of clarity felt as a resonance with all life energy yet in duality of separate existing selves demanding that conglomerate is unique to them? there is just the trap set waiting to undo any realization beyond name and form.

A good question to ask, is when looking at something and saying its name in ones mind? which mass of particles is affirming the others existence? In mental quiecence... a lot starts trying to affirm its existence through the particle mass one typically defines as a self... oddly enough the idea of an existing separate individual becomes more foreign a concept as time goes on... and ones existenece is simply the attachments of others demanding they exist by affirming that you must also, when it is just what it is when there is no such personal attachment beyond energies being exchanged... of course some of them resonate in a harmony and some of them disrupt upon contact of the various fields, this takes place even without all the self affirming chatter so words become moot except to convey a possibility that more harmony than chaos upon contact... that can be of a differing polarity yet it is no different in reality as all energy has potiential.

Awakening is simply understanding the chain of conditioning and the other links to their arising also conditioned, yet beyond that condition, it of course would be easy to take a negative approach and benefit oneself above others, yet that is simply an ego attachment that feels it requires something beyond such experience it as already had. Those with selves are some of the most demanding controlling people one could ever come across... insert assertations and foot is already firmly applied in ones own mouth or in anothers ass.

Basically alive and kicking... while beyond remains unaffected as to whether others so mired in duality persists or not, yet having been through it a great compassion and empathy arises knowing there is no way to give anyone the experience beyond experience beyond birth and death, as it is the very contact of others grasping that becomes cause of its continuance. pointing is simply saying lay it all down that there is experience beyond experience that is simply all experience and yet none.

There has been perception of many things but defining them into dogma or other rote concepts of course only leads to more attachments and graspings, so why toss more logs on fires to be consumed when so many wish to extingush such fuel for what is being pointed at?

I clarify what is already known... of course the greedy hateful and ignorant vested in people staying greedy hateful or ignorantly deluded dont like it... but that sort of speaks for itself obviously.

This thread and the idea it has brought up, reminded me of a book I read many moons ago - Les Caves du Vatican by Andre Gide, and in it one of the characters wants to carry out an "acte gratuit" - a spontaneous act, without premeditation, sort of like free will. Linky

However the pisser is that, as he wants to do this he has then planned and premeditated it so it is no longer an "acte gratuit". A bit of a Catch 22 really.

An interesting read from what I vaguely remember.

So yeah, I think we are all controlled by our surroundings, and free will as such is very difficult, unless you are a bohemian artist or hippy. We all have obligations, of whatever sort and the vast majority of people go with the flow and do not drop out of the rat race as that is easier.

a reply to: 1984hasarrived

The effect you mention is zen enlightenment, which is instantanious... of course that is a stage of enlightenment as it always grows laying down more and more conceptual fetters of arisings that depend on those concepts. Beyond the conceptual there is awakened or buddha nature, all things that arise are merely concepts to also lay down by having empathy and compassion knowing the struggle of that suffering so well that renunciation grew out of it. The only conceptual arising then is the suffering not ones own...

its like voices from hell not knowing they are in hell, and all one can do is patiently stand and point directly to the fetters and suffering holding them and the rest of the world spinning in a bondage of bias called duality, that arises from a self that holds all experiences in a personal conglomerate but in essence not the full experience nor the only experience just a perspective until they free themselves from their own bonds of attachment unaware they hold their own keys and wings to freedom at every single moment of everyday and that no one past present nor future can possibily bind them unless they all it or an ego is present that desires to bond or control another...

the irony is thats how it all works when so bonded, not so bonded? where could such bondage exist... except in the one whos finger is pointing to the exit and mistaking the pointing as the moon or light winking on the otherside of the world that isnt the actual source for it. Humility says no im no one special im just a mirror of what you reflect in a positive sense or negative sense in order to show you what action of such attachments are directly causing in oneself and others.

As an arhant in the world or basically a fully enlightened being? It is a very very difficult process standing in the midst of such wilderness with one hand held in fearlessness and feet on the eternal lotus that exists despite all others attemps at trying to pluck its beauty for the obvious attachments of greed, hate, and delusions of such ignorance that are no longer present. But of course as a house holder/layfollower such is the way the world is and empathy knowing there is only roots of greed and hate trying to dig deep and embed ignorant delusions only creates those doing it more suffering on themselves. Meaning responsibility lay only on those pointing in the name of greed and hate drawing lines of such instead of truth of the situation as it is. In other words very good learning even if no seen as learning, but wisdom knows the difference.

We have a freedom of will to a point but it is not a complete freedom (I am gonna get ripped for saying this) Almighty God has complete freedom of will becouse he really can do anything he chooses we on the other hand are limited to our state of being, maybe we call it being fallen but we cannot change our state, we cannot overcome death or illness but we have a freedom of choice as to how we live our lives, maybe true freedom of will is only what Almighty God himself has. I understand that people are going to say don't bring religion into this but we are talking about free will and what that entails, you may say what is freedom of will so I am saying what true freedom of will might be. We cannot change our state of being so I say we have a certain amount of free will but it is limited, (yes we overcome illness but I meant the end account of some).