Just discovered -- weird object in cis-lunar orbit

reposted --
S509356: weird object in cis-lunar orbit
www.satobs.org...
From: Marco Langbroek t,
9 Apr 2016 12:10:25 +0200

Hi all,

The SONEAR asteroid survey discovered an object in geocentered orbit yesterday, with PANNSTARS later providing precovery imagery from a week earlier.

The object is called S509356 and is in a weird distant orbit with apogee at half a lunar distance, perigee near geosynchronous altitude. Inclination 48 degrees, period 3.58 days.

Bill Gray has an orbit and ephemerides here:

www.projectpluto.com...

a reply to: JimOberg


I'm looking forward to reading what the scientists here think of this strange object.

originally posted by: JimOberg
reposted --
S509356: weird object in cis-lunar orbit
www.satobs.org...
From: Marco Langbroek t,
9 Apr 2016 12:10:25 +0200

Hi all,

The SONEAR asteroid survey discovered an object in geocentered orbit yesterday, with PANNSTARS later providing precovery imagery from a week earlier.

The object is called S509356 and is in a weird distant orbit with apogee at half a lunar distance, perigee near geosynchronous altitude. Inclination 48 degrees, period 3.58 days.

Bill Gray has an orbit and ephemerides here:

www.projectpluto.com...

What are the relative odds that an asteroid would be in a geocentered lunar orbit?
Could it be a remnant from the Apollo missions?

originally posted by: charlyv

originally posted by: JimOberg
reposted --
S509356: weird object in cis-lunar orbit
www.satobs.org...
From: Marco Langbroek t,
9 Apr 2016 12:10:25 +0200

Hi all,

The SONEAR asteroid survey discovered an object in geocentered orbit yesterday, with PANNSTARS later providing precovery imagery from a week earlier.

The object is called S509356 and is in a weird distant orbit with apogee at half a lunar distance, perigee near geosynchronous altitude. Inclination 48 degrees, period 3.58 days.

Bill Gray has an orbit and ephemerides here:

www.projectpluto.com...

What are the relative odds that an asteroid would be in a geocentered lunar orbit?
Could it be a remnant from the Apollo missions?

How many countries have visited the moon's neighborhood? Hopefully they're all talking to each other.

a reply to: carewemust

Yes, but weighted to U.S. due to # of missions. I suppose it could be anything.

originally posted by: charlyv
a reply to: carewemust

Yes, but weighted to U.S. due to # of missions. I suppose it could be anything.

Does the USA only track the "junk" that it leaves behind in EARTH orbit? Moon, Mars, etc.. leftovers are not tracked?

a reply to: carewemust

The asteroids certainly are tracked all right.
There is another interactive database like this for space junk.

Check this out:
3D Interactive Asteroid Tracker

a reply to: carewemust

They track what has potential to be a threat to current programs, no need to track objects that do not threaten the ISS, Hubble, and so on.

originally posted by: misterhistory
a reply to: carewemust

They track what has potential to be a threat to current programs, no need to track objects that do not threaten the ISS, Hubble, and so on.

I see. Thanks for letting me know this, MisterHistory. I suppose there's not much chance of crashing into the further out, untracked, space debris as we launch future missions beyond Earth.

Wonder if that Walson guy could get a picture of it with his rig?
Maybe we should ask....

S509356
-------

Asteroid surveys have spotted an unknown Earth satellite, provisionally
designated S509356, in a 30000 x 152000 km x 48 deg orbit. Looking
at my historical lists, it might be an object associated with the Vela
launches, although it's surprising it's only being spotted now.
The region beyond GEO is poorly tracked by satellite surveillance
systems but in recent years coverage by asteroid searchers has been
fairly good.

This message followed the information you posted, Jim.

To be clear: given the orbit this is almost certainly an artificial object.

The question now is: from which launch?

- Marco

Link to RE: S509356 weird object in cis-lunar orbit from Marco...

All Apollo L.E.M.s (the landers) were jettisoned prior to leaving lunar orbit on the trip back to earth. They all (apart from Apollo 13's one of course) crash landed back onto the moon in various places.

It never occurred to me that NASA possibly does not know exactly where all the landers crashed. I'm sure someone knows the answer but I doubt they tracked them or even worried about where they crashed. No way the LRO could spot such a small amount of wreckage either. Minus it's descent stage a LEM is pretty tiny and probably came apart like lego on impact. They would also detach empty o2 and fuel tanks before blast off so those would be missing from the crash sites also.

My point is, I'm guessing there is a stray wee Apollo Grumman Lunar Excursion Module still in Lunar orbit due to a freak trajectory. I don't think they were jettisoned in trajectory's to purposely guarantee a lunar crash, they just assumed eventual orbit decay. Which may not always have happened.

It would be cool to know if all the jettisoned NASA Apollo LEMS are accounted for and if this object was actually one of them.

a reply to: angus1745

Apollo 11's impact site is unknown - it was left in lunar orbit in the hope that it would send back data but (iirc) ran out of juice. Its orbit eventually decayed bu the impact site is unknown.

Apollo 15's impact area is known but the precise location hasn't yet been found.

Apollo 10's lunar module was placed in heliocentric orbit but has yet to be found.

The other Apollo lunar module impact craters have been spotted.

Wonder what the new object is?

Judging by the orbit, it's probably something that was meant to be launched from geosynchronous orbit towards the Moon or other Solar System destination, but something went wrong, like an engine failure.

Or it could actually be a geosynchronous satellite that got inadvertently boosted past its intended orbit. groups.yahoo.com...

a reply to: JimOberg
Could it be a Saturn rocket upper stage?
Discovery.com

On Sept. 3, 2002, amateur astronomer Bill Yeung found an asteroid. Initially named J002E3, astronomers tracked it and found that it was in Earth orbit, which was surprising. Objects within the Earth-moon system are quickly ejected, meaning this asteroid must have been a recent capture. Spectroscopic observations revealed the “asteroid” had a signature consistent with white titanium dioxide paint NASA used to paint the Saturn V rockets. Asteroid J002E3 turned out not to be an asteroid at all but the upper S-IVB stage of Apollo 12’s Saturn V from 1969.

The reports give the inclination of this object's orbit as 48 degrees, apparently with respect to Earth's equator. That seems a very high inclination for an object that was intended for geosynchronous orbit. Rather high for a spacecraft directed at the Moon, too, isn't it?

Would several decades of travel, and interactions with Earth, Moon, and Sun be likely to have changed the inclination of the orbit enough to account for a change of ~ 48 , or ~17 degrees, respectively?

a reply to: JimOberg

So tired of cis-lunar BS. Why does it have to be cis or trans? Why can't it just be lunar? Does the moon really have to have a gender identity? Madness.

a reply to: charlyv

Thanks for this link! That's fascinating, in a scary sort of way.

I found this piece on the subject.

S509356
-------

Asteroid surveys have spotted an unknown Earth satellite, provisionally
designated S509356, in a 30000 x 152000 km x 48 deg orbit. Looking
at my historical lists, it might be an object associated with the Vela launches, although it's surprising it's only being spotted now.
The region beyond GEO is poorly tracked by satellite surveillance
systems but in recent years coverage by asteroid searchers has been
fairly good.