1 Timothy 1:20 Turned over to Satan, by Paul

Paul is also a liar. When someone claims to hear voices of Jesus speaking to them today we call them insane and NOBODY believes that they really talked to Jesus.

But when a murdering psychopath claims it 2000 years ago people call him a prophet and apostle.

His story is so unbelievable that I can't believe so many people actually believe it. But I guess when you believe that God became his own son and allowed himself(or is it his son?) to be executed for the salvation of man and that just believing this lie is enough to get to heaven then you pretty much will believe anything, as long as the church SAYS it's true.

People that stick up for Paul need to realize that they are siding with the ENEMY of Jesus and the apostles, and inventing reasons and excuses for Paul and his false contradictory teachings.

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a reply to: Solarmania

Out of curiosity what is your beliefs? What religion do you follow?

We will know and understand where your coming from better when we know where your coming from.

Also apart from opinion, can you list all the scripture proving Paul is working for the devil, or against God. This evidence would hit home more than just your opinion.

As a self proclaimed Gnostic who is not a Gnostic, that owns and reads the Nah Hammadi library on a daily basis, have you actually read:

The Prayer of the Apostle Paul; or
The Apocalypse of Paul.

If so what do these manuscripts say about Paul?

I have even show that God himself has said Paul is his chosen, yet you seem to ignore Gods words. (Re: Acts 9:10 - 9:16).
You need to learn to provide tangible evidence when making such statements.

Coomba98

originally posted by: incoserv
a reply to: Solarmania

These were people who had already given themselves over to sin and darkness. They were already in the kingdom of darkness and under satanic authority by their own choices. The church was essentially making official what was already the reality by the personal choice of these individuals.

This was not a unkind and evil act. On the contrary, the ultimate goal was their repentance and salvation. It was an act of church discipline. See the aforementioned passage:

1 Corinthians 5:4-5
When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

Note that the goal of this act of church discipline was the restoration of this individual.

Satan is ever a hard taskmaster, never kind, never gentle, and never considerate of one's well-being. These people had made a decision to serve darkness and sin, to submit to satanic authority by willfully disobeying scripture and removing themselves from the spiritual covering of ecclesiastical authority. That decision would have a result in their lives, bringing about much negativity and destruction. Paul's admonition made the church and the individuals aware of the fact that they had submitted themselves to the kingdom of darkness and that that kingdom would cause destruction in their lives by publicly acknowledging that reality. It gave space for the fruit of that person's own bad choices to drive them to repentance.

If you'd continue reading the full counsel of scripture instead of yanking out random passages to argue over, you'd have seen that that was the end result in the Corinthian church where Paul later wrote in regards to that individual mentioned in the previously cited passage:

2 Corinthians 2:5-11
Now if anyone has caused pain, he has caused it not to me, but in some measure—not to put it too severely—to all of you. For such a one, this punishment by the majority is enough, so you should rather turn to forgive and comfort him, or he may be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. So I beg you to reaffirm your love for him. For this is why I wrote, that I might test you and know whether you are obedient in everything. Anyone whom you forgive, I also forgive. Indeed, what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ, so that we would not be outwitted by Satan; for we are not ignorant of his designs.

There is an old proverb:

The result of saving a fool from his folly is to fill the world with fools.

Yeah so you have a very sick understanding of mercy and forgiveness when you stick up for a man giving another man over toSatan.

Saying that they deserved it is not for you me or Paul to do and is the decision of God, not Paul.

Have you ever even read the new testament? Paul is a megalomaniac and madman who acts like a jerk the whole freaking time.

What a virus.

originally posted by: coomba98
a reply to: Solarmania

Out of curiosity what is your beliefs? What religion do you follow?

We will know and understand where your coming from better when we know where your coming from.

Also apart from opinion, can you list all the scripture proving Paul is working for the devil, or against God. This evidence would hit home more than just your opinion.

As a self proclaimed Gnostic who is not a Gnostic, that owns and reads the Nah Hammadi library on a daily basis, have you actually read:

The Prayer of the Apostle Paul; or
The Apocalypse of Paul.

If so what do these manuscripts say about Paul?

I have even show that God himself has said Paul is his chosen, yet you seem to ignore Gods words. (Re: Acts 9:10 - 9:16).
You need to learn to provide tangible evidence when making such statements.

Coomba98

You seem to have never read the 2 texts you are talking about yourself. They are very insignificant to the Nag Hammadi scriptures and do not have anything to do with the historical Paul.

There is no such thing as a Gnostic doctrine that :

"You must love Paul because the Nag Hammadi "Gnostics" had two short writings attributed to him."

or:

"You must not study the bible and find out that Paul is a fraud."

You will find no trace of Pauline theology in the Nag Hammadi Library, on the contrary, Wisdom is more important than faith and faith is not salvation so maybe you should stop trying to make people look like they don't know what they are talking about when it's you who hasn't got a clue and most likely hunts this website looking for people to disagree with.

But your strategy of posting bits of information that aren't relevant is not very effective. What concern of yours is it who has read what book and why do you pretend to be an expert when you know very little about Gnosticism.

And are you actually on the internet to argue with people? And question what books they have read? I don't see anything to be gained by lying about reading a book or accusing someone of not reading a book that they say they did. It's pointless and immature.

And how bored are you that you look for arguments on the internet. All the information in the world is on the internet and you spend your time harassing people?

Are you really that sad?

I mean, if you are so damn smart and know so much about Gnosticism you should be a Gnostic.

But, like every uneducated person in the world you think that there was actually a religion called Gnosticism by its adherents and that its bible was the Nag Hammadi Library.

But they didn't call themselves Gnostics and their tradition is one out of many traditions CALLED Gnostic by the church.

But Gnostic thought is more than what was going on in Egypt. It is quite simply spiritual knowledge, recognizing that you are divine and descend from God, that the world is evil and the only way to salvation is by enlightenment. Not just having faith but also wisdom.

How you achieve this Gnosis is specific to the individual. You can be a Christian Gnostic, or whatever you want to call yourself, or you can be a Gnostic who studies all religions with respect. Or you can create your own school of thought.

Your attitude is like because someone says they are Gnostic they must believe in and follow a certain doctrine, the NHL. Besides showing how little you know about Gnosticism you have just tried to define another mans beliefs and that they aren't allowed to dislike Paul because two short insignificant fictitious books about him exist in the NHL.

Do I have to explain to you how ridiculous that is? Nobody is going to tell a Gnostic what to believe. Nobody is going to revoke your Gnostic card because you figured out Paul was a fraud.

Any other ridiculous crap you want to get off your chest?

Any thing else you want to tell people about what they are supposed to believe because of their philosophical leanings?

Because we all know that people just love being told what they should believe based off an outsider who doesn't understand and thinks that knowing something exists is as good as knowing everything about it.

Somehow I don't think you are an expert in world religions. But what you can't do with your own knowledge you can always Google and post it like you already knew it.

But I can see right through that strategy because everyone on this website does it. Hear something you don't like, Google a rebuttal and post it as yours.

But that only works if you don't get asked follow up questions like:

What does the Paul of the New Testament teach that shows up in Gnostic writings of Nag Hammadi as taught by Paul ?

In the Apostolic (not Paul) texts of Nag Hammadi, how many times is Paul mentioned?

And how many times is he mentioned by Jesus in the NHL?

So you see, nobody gave a rats ars about Paul and it's doubtful that they ever read a Pauline epistle ever in their life as he is never referenced or mentioned outside those tiny fictitious books. In fact I don't think that the New Testament was finalized yet when these stories were first written. They obviously are copies of older documents.

But since my personal choice to reject all Pauline theology as of a false prophet, which is rooted in understanding the events of the book of Acts and Paul's role as usurper, I have met many people who are as aware of this as I. On this website.

You are just way behind.

You actually asked for references as to why someone said Paul works for Satan? Why is it someone else's problem that you don't know how to show scripturally that Paul is of the evil one? It's your lack of knowledge that is the problem, so why don't you increase your knowledge and stop pretending that you know so much and you won't find yourself confused and in need of help when someone says something.

Are you a Christian? What is your religion? What do you believe? Have you read the whole bible? Are you baptized? Did you know that Paul hated the Apostles and insults them constantly? Or that he wasn't an apostle and never met or spoke with Jesus?

That the seven churches in Asia rejected his false teachings?

a reply to: coomba98

You claimed that God himself approved of Paul? Lol, where in the writings of Paul or Luke?

No, God did not choose Paul and neither did Jesus.

Just because you tell someone your opinion based on your belief that Paul is telling the truth doesn't qualify as showing them that God chose Paul.

Luke was a Greek disciple of Paul who wrote with a distinct Pauline bias and he is the author of the book of Acts. He is on Paul's team and believed Paul so he wrote what he believed. But he was often working from word of mouth as he never witnessed most of the things he wrote about.

Was Luke dishonest? Probably not. Was he bias towards Paul? Most definitely, and so his account can not be fully believed.


The problem is you don't really read the bible and just google as you go. Using Luke or Paul to verify Paul's claims is illogical.

Let's look outside of his immediate circle and go to the last book of the Bible and the vision of new Jerusalem. Count the number of the names of the Apostles of the Lamb. It's 12. Not 13.

So the one chance Jesus has to confirm the claims of Paul he makes no mention of a man named Paul.

Now that is showing you that Paul is not recognized by God and this is from the mouth of Jesus and through the mind of John.

###SNIPPED###

a reply to: Padawan ElementalFreeze

AAAAAAGGGGGGGHHHH!!!! PADAWAN!!! YYYAAAAAY!!!!
[sorry been drinking for the last 6 hours and in a freakin happy mood, I love you!]

originally posted by: Padawan ElementalFreeze
You seem to have never read the 2 texts you are talking about yourself.

They are very insignificant to the Nag Hammadi scriptures and do not have anything to do with the historical Paul.

But I have Padawan, I have!

Page 256 of the Nag Hammadi library starts the The Apocalypse of Paul manuscript. So Tell me Padawan, what do the Gnostics say about Paul that is damning? Ownness is on you Padawan.

originally posted by: Padawan ElementalFreeze
There is no such thing as a Gnostic doctrine that :

"You must love Paul because the Nag Hammadi "Gnostics" had two short writings attributed to him."

or:

"You must not study the bible and find out that Paul is a fraud."

Where do you really get that Paul was sinister against God? Weird Padawan weird.

originally posted by: Padawan ElementalFreeze
"You must not study the bible and find out that Paul is a fraud."

So you give credence to the Bible? Or the NHL? Or DSS?

Or do you not believe in religion and take is a philosophy?

Your so confused even the Joker from Batman would find you looney!!

originally posted by: ElementalFreeze
You will find no trace of Pauline theology in the Nag Hammadi Library,

There's a whole freaking manuscript on page 256 to 259!! How does this go with your opinion Padawan!

originally posted by: Padawan ElementalFreeze
But your strategy of posting bits of information that aren't relevant is not very effective. What concern of yours is it who has read what book and why do you pretend to be an expert when you know very little about Gnosticism.

I am an expert in the Abrahamic religions Padawan. Its funny you refuse to answer pure fact questions posted to you that is ignored. But please continue Padawan, continue.

Ohh and to you I am MMaster Summers Eve!

originally posted by: Padawan ElementalFreeze
[1]And are you actually on the internet to argue with people? [2[And question what books they have read? [3]I don't see anything to be gained by lying about reading a book or accusing someone of not reading a book that they say they did. [4]It's pointless and immature.

Another part segmented response Padawan.

1. No I actually come to discuss and observe. Argue, for your yes Padawan, yes!
2. If you keep posting these boring old pathetic threads/posts without and backup (yes that's why there boring old pathetic threads/posts that is more amusement that education), then ridicule will result Padawan.
3. I do Padawan, I do! How do I know where your coming from if you don't give sources? Strange Padawan strange!
4. You telling me Padawan, your telling me!!

originally posted by: Padawan ElementalFreeze
But your strategy of posting bits of information that aren't relevant is not very effective. What concern of yours is it who has read what book and why do you pretend to be an expert when you know very little about Gnosticism.

Again need to know where your coming from Padawan. As you don't provide links or references Padawan.

How are they insignificant to the Nag Hammadi scriptures and do not have anything to do with the historical Paul.

[sigh] Padawan [sigh] His in there Padawan and in a good Light!

originally posted by: Padawan ElementalFreeze
[1]I mean, if you are so damn smart and know so much about Gnosticism you should be a Gnostic.

[2]But, like every uneducated person in the world you think that there was actually a religion called Gnosticism by its adherents and that its bible was the Nag Hammadi Library.

Crap another rant this is taking ages!!! Will do in two part.

1. Nope just a Scholar Padawan, a Scholar!
2. Where did you get this idea?? Even in my drunken state this is strange Padawan strange.

originally posted by: Padawan ElementalFreeze
But they didn't call themselves Gnostics and their tradition is one out of many traditions CALLED Gnostic by the church.

But Gnostic thought is more than what was going on in Egypt. It is quite simply spiritual knowledge, recognizing that you are divine and descend from God, that the world is evil and the only way to salvation is by enlightenment. Not just having faith but also wisdom.

How you achieve this Gnosis is specific to the individual. You can be a Christian Gnostic, or whatever you want to call yourself, or you can be a Gnostic who studies all religions with respect. Or you can create your own school of thought.

This is beautiful Padawan, beautiful! Keep on this track please.

Flowers and butterflies and chicken parmigiana ohh my!

originally posted by: ElementalFreeze
1. Your attitude is like because someone says they are Gnostic they must believe in and follow a certain doctrine, the NHL. 2. Besides showing how little you know about Gnosticism you have just tried to define another mans beliefs and that they aren't allowed to dislike Paul because two short insignificant fictitious books about him exist in the NHL.

3. Do I have to explain to you how ridiculous that is? Nobody is going to tell a Gnostic what to believe. 4. Nobody is going to revoke your Gnostic card because you figured out Paul was a fraud.

Ok another departmentalisation due to the long rant. (gotta keep going! Do not Pass Out Summers Eve!)

1. No Padawan, the NHL is a collection of many Gnostic doctrine. There are dozens and dozens of Gnostic religions. Just like Christianity and your multiple internet personality disorder. Padawan.
2. Yet I teach you Padawan, teach you! You know nothing John Snow, I mean Padawan. (eeer slip up no?). Ohh and you cant ridicule Paul with baseless arguments. Padawan.
3. No need Padawan 'I Totally Understand!'

4. How so Padawan? How so?

--

TBC Padawan.

Coomba98 or Summers Eve or whatever make you happy Padawan

a reply to: Padawan ElementalFreeze

originally posted by: Padawan ElementalFreeze
[1] Somehow I don't think you are an expert in world religions. [2] But what you can't do with your own knowledge you can always Google and post it like you already knew it.

[3] But I can see right through that strategy because everyone on this website does it. Hear something you don't like, Google a rebuttal and post it as yours.

[4] And how many times is he mentioned by Jesus in the NHL?

crap Padawan, this is getting tiring! (Yawn)

1. Yet I seem to be teaching you Padawan for the last 5 months. Padawan. Prove me wrong!
2. We all Google Padawan! You stuck in the past? Google is a great library assistant. I have the books, if you don't believe me then ask me a page. (NHL, DSS,) Fck Bible if you wish!
3. This is your territory Padawan, do bring us into your fold. We love Knowledge. Deny Ignorance Padawan, Deny Ignorance.
4. His in Acts man, Acts! (crap was it this one? um. Prove me wrong! Padawan! Meh.

...

rest of your post is too boring and im ready to crash Padawan. If you really need a response imagination is key, not that your lacking. Padawan.

originally posted by: Padawan ElementalFreeze
a reply to: coomba98
The problem is you don't really read the bible and just google as you go. Using Luke or Paul to verify Paul's claims is illogical.

Funny how people who are outed with facts and refuse to back their own arguments with opinions that resort in dumbassery.

I love you Padawan! Night

Coomba98... Sorry

Summers Eve.

a reply to: DISRAELI
Absolutely correct. This was an edict from Paul to the congregation of James (through Timothy) to excommunicate these two men for teaching that the resurrection of men had already passed. This same Hymenaeus is also mentioned in 2nd Timothy 2:17,18 as a false teacher along with his fellow teachers of like teaching. These were to be exposed as false teachers and excommunicated from the synagogue of James.
Good teaching DISRAELI - Thank you for your teaching.