Why don't we just opt out of our government and stop paying taxes?

a reply to: andy06shake

Then fight to change the laws. Duh. That's literally the point in a democracy. If your positions were as popular as you suggest, there would be more than enough votes to overturn these things.

a reply to: Profusion

By the way, here's a handy guide.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Votes can be manipulated just like the people who cast them im afraid.

Democracy simply does not exist, its just another form of control, all be it one that people think they have a hand in.

End of the day monies talk and the rest of the 99% simply do the walk.

a reply to: onequestion

I would love to see someone try.
Give it a go, see how long you last without any infrastructure, without an education system, without a healthcare system, without roads, police, fire services, without a military to protect you...

Go and look for some land, set up your little commune and give it a go.

And remember, if you "opt out", that means you get nothing, you do not get to use the roads, you do not get to call the cops when one of your drunken friends beats wife number three to near death, you don't get to go to the hospital when the pandemic starts, you don't get to send your kids off to a state-run school every morning.

Why has this not been done? Because most people like the idea of it, and when they try it they soon realize that we created civilization for a reason.

a reply to: onequestion

I mean what could they really do if we stopped willfully giving them our money en mass?

You don't 'give' taxes to the government, the company you work for does. Indentured servants for the IRS, they take the tax from your earnings before you see your paycheck.

Can people still file for no withholdings for the year?

a reply to: Rocker2013

Why has this not been done? Because most people like the idea of it, and when they try it they soon realize that we created civilization for a reason.

What you call civilization is really a form of enslavement to the state.

Sure people have become familiar with their 'rut'. but all those 'services' you cited could be done locally without federal oversight, interference and taxes to make war with. Ya think?

a reply to: andy06shake

Start at the local level. There are more than 20,000 official cities and towns in the US. And there are more than 2,000 counties. If your ideas are really as popular as you think they are, it should be easy to win small cities, districts, and municipalities. Then go from there.

Of course, that won't happen because most people actually enjoy the perks of civilization.

originally posted by: Azureblue
Interesting comment. Would you like to educate me more?
thank you

www.snopes.com...

www.quatloos.com...

www.thefogbow.com...

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Rocker2013

Why has this not been done? Because most people like the idea of it, and when they try it they soon realize that we created civilization for a reason.

What you call civilization is really a form of enslavement to the state.

Sure people have become familiar with their 'rut'. but all those 'services' you cited could be done locally without federal oversight, interference and taxes to make war with. Ya think?

Even if they're done locally, it would still require taxes. After all, people would still need to be compensated to do those tasks (and resources would still have to be purchased).

Unless you're talking about a cashless, socialist community. Then people would be doing it "for free" because socialism can consist of community owned businesses & services that focus on creating what is needed for the community to survive. Ironically, that self sufficiency is the basic idea behind my socialist utopias.

a reply to: Profusion

The gentleman in the following video claims to be recognized as a sovereign in the United States:

Does this guy need a passport to leave his property then? I hope he doesn't enter my country illegally.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Even if they're done locally, it would still require taxes. After all, people would still need to be compensated to do those tasks (and resources would still have to be purchased).

Much rather pay my neighbor Bob to fix the potholes in my street than the gubment that can't seem to get er done.

The teacher down the street will home school my kids, the out of work street sweeper, the tree trimmer, the mail man all live on my street. Our neighborhood prefers to hire locally, keeps the money in town, costs a lot less than 30 or 40 percent taxes I used to pay to some "capital city" thousands of miles away. And wallah, all the jobless people are earning again.

a reply to: intrptr

So you don't actually have a problem paying taxes; you just don't want to pay them to our State, local, and federal government.

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
a reply to: intrptr

So you don't actually have a problem paying taxes; you just don't want to pay them to our State, local, and federal government.

Hiring the college student down the road isn't that taxing…

originally posted by: tinner07
a reply to: Profusion

The gentleman in the following video claims to be recognized as a sovereign in the United States:

Does this guy need a passport to leave his property then? I hope he doesn't enter my country illegally.

He claims that he's recognized by the State of Texas as a sovereign. My understanding is that it's not that rare of a thing in Texas. Here's an example:

thetexasrepublic.com...

If you're interested in his legal rationale for how he can be a sovereign and still live in Texas, you can watch his videos on YouTube. He couldn't have made it to where he has without knowing the laws, that's for sure.

And, if what he's doing is legal, I don't see how you have grounds to criticize it.

And to all the people putting emphasis on paying taxes...

The gentleman who goes by the name "sovereignliving" on YouTube says that he does pay taxes, just not directly. He set up a fictional corporation to interact with all the other fictional entities (such as the US government). It's no different than your straw man (which allows you to interact with other fictional entities).

He is not telling people to avoid taxes at all. Could that be why he's not in jail? It's all about money after all, isn't it?

originally posted by: AngryCymraeg
a reply to: Profusion

By the way, here's a handy guide.

I brought up two different classes of people (for lack of a better term):

state citizens

sovereigns

The two things have nothing in common at all.

I seriously think about doing that every day. But my country LOVES taxes. They even decided yesterday to get rid of public school funding so that taxpayers can pay for it instead. It feels like a Catch 22, especially with kids of my own.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Going by that logic, we only have to follow laws we choose to follow. That's literally the perspective of criminals (aka "people who break laws").

It is also the perspective of Government in its entirety, they not only choose which laws do and don't apply to them, they also choose to abuse position and power to avoid any repercussions; Literally laughing in the face of the common citizen who would face heavy fines and jail time for committing the same acts on a lesser scale. The American government has been stealing from American people through a non existent law on income tax for example, they have faced no prison time despite the tax being unconstitutional therefore illegal and the American people who choose to avoid this faced heavy prison time to ensure others didn't follow suit. So just in that instance with have large scale theft, intimidation, false imprisonment, fraud and wiping their arses with constitutional rights. Where's the justice? Where's the justice for those who have lost years of their lives over something they were never legally bound to, bearing in mind that most of these people were common folk not hardened convicts, imagined getting raped or beaten or both and losing precious time over something you were never guilty of, sickening. They don't give a # though they will let it drift into forgotten history and laugh about it over champagne or brandy for years to come.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

income tax is what kills us...so it is the prime issue here. I'm not opposed to paying VAT on goods and merchandise.

so what's your point on the c/p ?

that it's expensive ? what ?

So what man ? I pay double for gallon of gas then you in America...and my country is endlessly poorer then yours.

You know how much a gallon of milk costs in my country ? 5 $

And we're no tax heaven I can tell you that.

I'm in Europe btw.

p.s. My mistake...I was referring to this thread in general...not as a US citizen nor was I referring to US laws.

originally posted by: intrptr

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
a reply to: intrptr

So you don't actually have a problem paying taxes; you just don't want to pay them to our State, local, and federal government.

Hiring the college student down the road isn't that taxing…

You'd still have to pay that independent teacher for the schooling; "Bob" to repair the potholes in your road; the out of work street sweeper, the tree trimmer, and the mail man that live on your street. But instead of everyone in the community paying a small fee and pooling resources, you'd all have to pay individually higher fees.

Just look at the difference in public school costs compared to daycare costs. Or hiring private security guards to watch each property as opposed to being able to call a collectively funded law enforcement squad.

And how would a "for hire" fire extinguishing company work, as opposed to a collectively funded fire department? Would each competing fire extinguishing company have its own service plans, fire hydrant network, and the such? What happens if someone in the neighborhood refuses to pay one of their services, and a fire spreads from their properties? How can you force them to take responsibility for their actions?

a reply to: onequestion
If it is "Our Money" why don't we forgive our Own Debt?

End the Federal Reserve Bank

a reply to: onequestion

The underground economy is where I'm at, and where folks are deciding to go. Independent contract workers are absolutely hated by the IRS. This is where the tax revolt resides.

Also called the underground, informal, or parallel economy, the shadow economy includes not only illegal activities but also unreported income from the production of legal goods and services, either from monetary or barter transactions. Hence, the shadow economy comprises all economic activities that would generally be taxable were they reported to the tax authorities.

www.imf.org...

Here is what the IRS has to say about taxable income that they can't find.

The underground worker can usually live on less income because no Federal or State income taxes, worker compensation taxes, payroll taxes, insurance, or social security payments are made. An undergrounder earning $40,000 can provide his family with the same lifestyle a wage earner can provide with $60,000. As a result, with very little overhead, they can provide their services at a lower cost. This will be attractive to other entrepreneurs who need to cut costs, and in a sluggish economy, to consumers hoping to stretch their buying dollars.

www.irs.gov...&-Self-Employed/Cash-Intensive-Businesses-Audit-Techniques-Guide-Chapter-8

The tax revolt has already started.