Jesus was pierced with a spearhead, not a lance; John

Since it was the day of Preparation (* «Erev Pesach», See below), and so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken and that they might be taken away. So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first, and of the other who had been crucified with him. But when they came to Jesus and saw that he was already dead (Gr. θνῄσκω «Thenesko»), they did not break his legs. But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear (Gr. λόγχη «Logché» lit. 'spearhead'), and at once there came out blood and water. He who saw (Gr. ὁράω Lit. to see or fig. to imagine, think or believe) it has borne witness (Gr. μαρτυρέω «Martureo» this word later became the Eng. word Martyr) —his testimony is true, and he knows that he is telling the truth—that you also may believe. For these things took place that the Scripture might be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken.” And again another Scripture says, “They will look on him whom they have pierced.” [ESV] John 19:31-37 (emphasis and most parentheses mine)

(*) «Day of Preparation», or «Erev Pesach», is the Day before the first day of Passover. The first day of Passover is the most sacred Sabbath of the Hebrew year and can fall on any day of the week, since the Hebrews followed the Lunar calendar which was adjusted to the Solar one regularly according to an elaborate system of leap years.

When the soldiers came and «saw» (Gr. ὁράω) that Jesus was already «dead» (Gr. θνῄσκω), remember two things 1, that the word Gr. ὁράω (to see) also means to believe or to think, and 2, that the word used for dead here, Gr. θνῄσκω, is only used in the Gospel when relating to someone who later comes back to life, so we can assume Gr. θνῄσκω when used in NT refers to unconsciousness, not death as such. The text also shows how bearing witness about Jesus was punished with death, since the word Gr. μαρτυρέω «Martureo» basically means martyr, and the martyr in question is a Roman soldier, traditionally named 'Longinus Panthera' which means «The Lion with the Spear» in Latin. He received court martial and was executed for having let a person survive the crucifixion.

Jesus was pierced with a Gr. λόγχη «Logché» which means spearhead and not a lance or a complete spear with a cane or stick attached to it, Herodotus clearly shows that logché means spearhead, and as far as I know, NT is the only place where it is translated lance, and not just the point of it, in other words, Jesus must have been either lying on the ground or somehow be situated relatively close to the ground. This adds to my theory that the piercing of Jesus' chest was made with trained precision, and the marginalia explains how the one who testified was martyred.

The text says the soldier possibly merely believed Jesus was dead, and that Jesus was pierced while being close to the ground, probably already taken down, which speaks volumes of how this was possibly done up close with precision, and also, every single time the word used for Dead in the text is only used elsewhere in NT for people who are unconscious and come back to life, so it's safe to assess that Jesus was merely unconscious and breathless. The text also reveals that the soldier extracted water and blood from Jesus' chest, which is a rather obvious sign that Jesus was suffering from a collapsed lung and that the cut allowed for (but possibly not deliberately), equalisation of the air-pressure inside the chest which is vital for breathing, and also for extraction of hemothorax, blood and condensed water that gathers inside the sort of «bag» that encapsulates the lungs and is central in the «pneumatic» mechanism that allows for breathing.

Also in the Nicene Creed Jesus' supposed death isn't even mentioned, only that he was crucified and brought to a tomb. This shows the subject was controversial up to and following the Nicene Council.

Jesus was as good as dead, he was pronounced dead by a soldier who merely saw and imagined Jesus was dead, or the death here is relating to how Jesus had been a member of John the Baptist's movement, together with thousands of soldiers who had gone through the necromantic ritual of Baptism. John would have the power to kill, so you would be ruled Dead from Original Sin, but then hopefully forgiven by John the Baptist, and not drowned, but pardoned half way into the act.

Jesus may have been dead to the soldiers at Calvary, but he was evidently not dead enough, since he would live to tell the story to Rosemary disguised as a gardener three days later.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

a reply to: kisin

I found this post in the the thread called 'the Spear of Destiny' after searching for Lancea Longini, the traditional name of the spearhead in question: notice how in the following post, it even seems to have inspired the shape of the fighter plane F-16 ==> www.abovetopsecret.com...

ETA: Great documentary btw. I have never seen conclusive proof of that particular spear being a fake before, however it should be added that the samples made in the docu, were very superficial, but I guess we can finally rule out that the spear in question as a fake. The tests they made shows it is likely a later artefact from the 7th or 8th centuries. There are several other spears claimed to be the Longini Spear though, but none an amazing history of merits like the Vienna lance I think.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

An interesting approach, as often in your threads, much thanks.

If I may,

The system of leap years in the old calendar is actually much more fluid, simple and seasonally accurate because twelve moons a year twelve years per cycle, and seven times one moon is prolonged into a thirteenth.
No need to add extra days except on centuries and so forth.

Then, Roman Dons are still known to have people's legs broken in some circles, that's interesting.
Also interesting is the Roman guard who would double as a paramedic after actively participating in the torturing and crucifying process with his ilk: quite an impressive change of heart, and I suppose given the nature of the torturee, it would make sense.
So basically the Pariseans (oh right, Pharisees, because that transliteration is the mainstream one for this specific use lol) wouldn't have the balls to crucify the father's son (bar abas) their self, would somehow overrule the pacifism of the ruling occupation to do their dirty work in Roman style, only to have said ruling occupation forces save the saviour in the end.

I like it, sort of.

Closer to fact than many other versions including Mel Gibson's in my opinion.

Maybe everyone should care less about how he died and focus on how he lived..... by going out and spreading wisdom while trying to help others rather than using him as a shield to judge others. You weren't supposed to worship his image of misery on a cross, you were to celebrate him and how he was the first enlightened man of our species. Funny if all of you get to the Gates just to get graded a D- on your faith homework lmao

So? Does it matter?

a reply to: Naabaahii

Maybe everyone should care less about how he died and focus on how he lived.....

Are you like some kind of smart guy?

How come you know this stuff? You're like illuminatus or sumfin?

You're only saying that because you hate science, jesus was a monkey because rocks are millions of years, radioactivity! quantum mechanics!

it doesn't even feel good to play the other side. why do they constantly do it?
I mean the experience was interesting, but as a lifestyle?

Well I'm glad you are making sure to get the minutiae of the myth straightened out. We wouldn't want people spreading a story full of contradictions now would we?

a reply to: Naabaahii

Thou sayeth the Good Wordes. Agree totally.

Imho. «saint Paul's» theology— centred around abolishing Mosaic Judaism and focusing on the good lord's failure, his death, effectively turning the Nazaree movement into a death cult, that would make them illegal to both Rome and Jerusalem— is the origin of this focus on Jesus' utter failure and humiliation, selling the drama of the passion as magic and miracle, when it was instead a demonstration of love, bravory and decency on the Roman soldiers' part. They saved Jesus life, since they supposedly mis-judged Jesus' lacking breath/spirit as him being dead.

a reply to: Kukri

Devil's in the details, sir.

BTW: Is that a Ghurka-blade in your avatar? The Ghurka police officers carry such, and if you mess with the law pretty bad, or reject arrest, he will take the axe-like blade and gently hew into your right shoulder, breaking the collar bone and effectively disable your right arm. If you continue to be all arms and legs, the officer would hew the left sholder, and then if you still keep screaming you'll bite his legs off or bleed on him or something, he could do the horizontal thing with the neck to separate the head from the body. Supposedly it's very effective and only a few people f*ck with Ghurkas anywhere in the world.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

I am embarrassed for people that would squabble over the difference between a lance and a spear, please
carry on

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Oh you mean the Gurkha knife, oh blade, sword, cleaver, meat axe, machete, cutting tool or whatever it is
Don't get it wrong, might be a thread about it before to long

Not much difference if it was a spear or lance. Either will kill you.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

I am embarrassed for people that would squabble over the difference between a lance and a spear, please
carry on

The difference is whether Jesus was pierced to death from a distance by a blind man with a lance from a distance, or as the text seems to indicate that he was pierced with a spearhead at close range by a seeing man, thus allowing for a skilled and precise section into the chest, surgical first aid contra murder of a man— proclaimed by the soldier's officer as innocent. Romans were well experienced with ruptured lungs in the battlefields, and their surgical skills evident within the Roman regiments were actually pretty amazing.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

i actually know the answer to this...

Ask a freemason he can tell you! A freemason opened the door for me!!! Im pointer finger at the cross,

a reply to: kisin

Care to elaborate? I'm all ears, or rather eyes, since we're hopefully talking about writing and reading. I don't know many masons and all that, that's all. Please be a proper Pythagorean and reveal what's hidden, and a good Christian to put the candle on the table, not under it

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

The thing is, im not sure you can actually tell outright, always seems to be that little notion of "secret agenda".
You have to many Christians in here, and well.. Christianity has dug it self down in a rabbit hole it cant get out of, mostly cause the " urge to power " by the reformation during the 15th century..

I on the other hand, want back what is my peoples heritage as a gypsy..

Ill PM it, and if you understand, say in this thread.. OH mY F****** GAWD

Edit; You send a PM havent figured out how to PM on this 15th century forum

originally posted by: Naabaahii
...
and how he was the first enlightened man of our species.

This is the first I've heard of Jesus being the first enlightened man of our species. Is this a commonly-held belief?

a reply to: dogstar23

didnt know he was actually alive

a reply to: kisin

Sent you a pm.

PS: Below the post/thread/karma-meter in the avatar field, there is a little green dude, click him an a wee menu pops up, selects Send message (or whatever it says, you'll get it, took me a while to figure out too). I may be busy for a few hours, but I'll check up on the boards as soon as I remember afterwords to check out the response.