Black English Vernacular (BEV)

a reply to: IslandOfMisfitToys

It's a cultural difference. Most immigrant groups are and have been treated abominably (Irish, Chinese, etc.) to say nothing of what happened to the tribes. Most of them have let go and gone on. Not all of them, mind you, but many. You do find Native Americans who are passionately anti-larger culture, and I'm sure there are Chinese that way too.

a reply to: IslandOfMisfitToys

Well, the dominant culture is white.

Look at what happened to the Indian Americans--they chose to live separate and face the consequences. Honestly, I think that the black community should really look to how the Indians live as an example of what one should do if one wishes to change the dominant culture.

a reply to: Edumakated
It was pretty hard to have a normal family structure for the field slaves too.

a reply to: Edumakated

Re your #1 premise: i am a white woman, albeit on up in age, and VERY rarely can I not recognise when a black person is speaking for the exact reasons you stated, even if they're speaking extremely proper English.

I don't know why, but many times I can pinpoint where a person is from when they're speaking a foreign language even though I've only been to Japan and Germany as a military brat and only know English, with a smattering of Spanish and German. I only noticed these things about myself some 30 years ago and actually kind of enjoy that inate little ability! Silly, huh?

a reply to: Edumakated

Excellent point! the Dichotomy of being a house slave vs a field slave must have been extremely polarizing. There's so many socio-political points to make on that... house slaves were probably more likely to be affected by Stockholm syndrome, so perhaps would have even viewed themselves as elevated above the field slaves and could have singled them out for mistreatment in a sort of "sh** rolls downhill" sort of situation. I also wonder if slave owners tended to get more attached to house slaves, treating them sort of as useful pets with genuine affection, while the field slaves would be traded and sold at a whim.

Definitely some food for thought, I think i'm gonna go fishing for some history on the web now.

a reply to: ketsuko

You cannot compare the culture of other countries to inner-city 'culture' that is not based in any ethnicity. It's apples and oranges. Black people aren't immigrants.

And while that is true, it isn't the same thing. It isn't a real language--and it has no ethnic roots or ties in history unlike other cultures. Africans don't do what inner city black people do. No black people besides inner city black people in America do what they do.

originally posted by: rukia
a reply to: ketsuko

You cannot compare the culture of other countries to inner-city 'culture' that is not based in any ethnicity. It's apples and oranges. Black people aren't immigrants.

And while that is true, it isn't the same thing. It isn't a real language--and it has no ethnic roots or ties in history unlike other cultures. Africans don't do what inner city black people do. No black people besides inner city black people in America do what they do.

Neither are the Chinese (Yellow Peril, anyone?) or the Irish anymore, but they are examples of two groups who came to this country in large numbers and were treated abominably. They have moved on.

Neither am I talking about modern day Africans (or African descent Caribbeans) who move to this country. They across the board tend to do better and embrace the larger culture better than urban blacks.

a reply to: ketsuko

That's not the same issue.

Like I said, apples and oranges.
None of those ethnic groups have such a thing that is comparable to BEV/AAVE that keeps them in a disadvantaged position in society. There is no logical basis for "gween" to mean going. If anything, it means green. This is English, after all.

a reply to: rukia

Ugh! You are taking my comment on a tangent.

I was talking about groups who faced horrible treatment by the groups already here and used it as an excuse to isolate themselves to the point of creating their own culture and dialect. In that those groups are indeed relevant just like the Native Americans are. All are groups who move on and embrace the larger culture the way urban blacks refuse to to the point of actively working against it and isolating themselves to the detriment of everything in their lives.

a reply to: ketsuko

They didn't create their own anything.
It's English.
They're not even trying to speak it correctly/adhere to any rules of the language.
You're right about the other groups, and I hear what you're saying but I don't think that there's a connection.

Also, no, assimilating isn't abandoning one's ethnic roots. It's a melting pot. You can only change the dominant culture by joining it. That's America. You're free do be who you please, just do your civic duty. Look at Frederick Douglass.

a reply to: Edumakated

You are impressing the hell out of me. We could learn so much from you.

a reply to: rukia

A dialect of English is English. Maybe my first post wasn't clear on that, but the only thing it has to adhere to in order to be recognized as English and a dialect of English is the basic grammar structure. In other words, it has subject/verb/do style structuring to it, but in most other ways, the words used and the pronunciations of said words can be from other languages or distorted or "repurposed" to the point where we don't recognize them at all.

Think Cajun. It is also a dialect of English, but listen to a true speaker of the dialect and you wouldn't understand it at all. Doesn't change the fact that it has the basic overall grammatical structure of English: subject/verb/do.

Ebonics or Black Vernacular or whatever it's called now is a dialect of English and it has been created by the same urban subculture most inner city blacks (and increasingly Hispanics and urban whites) are adopting or have adopted as their own.

originally posted by: IslandOfMisfitToys
a reply to: EdumakatedThere was once a thread about black people being unproportionately put in jail.

Well, if 98% of them would use their damn turning signals maybe they wouldn't get pulled over so much? Or any of the other laws black people refuse to obey.

Funny you bring this up. We frequent a nearby store which has a sign directly in front of the door stating "NO parking any time", yet there is a car parked there every single time and each time the person comes out of the store, he or she is black.

After observing this for some time it dawned on me that many blacks might not have that indignant defensive attitude that many people assume they have, they just most likely can not read to observe rules. I find it a travesty that many kids of any and all races, with the amount of tax dollars going to education, cannot read!

I recently went through a McDonald's drive thru for a passenger in my car, and noticed there was a new menu board, virtually no text, all pictures. Being a local franchise that hires mostly blacks, I got to wondering if that is exactly how they see an order on their registers. I know they give a computer printed receipt but I wonder if the order is shown on the register, in touch screen picture format.

I love libraries and grew up going to them, but I always kind of laugh a little when they are trying to raise money for improving or re-building...tough sell, it never happens!

a reply to: Edumakated
Trying to understand the why, behind the use of Ebonics, in area of intense poverty, takes looking beyond the surface. Unfortunately, it will also require us to take a good, long, hard, look at our history, and our prejudices.

I know many people that identify as Black, that are just as lost and confused, when faced with Ebonics, as any white person. I have been to area where white people spoke a dialect that was completely foreign to those outside of their local area. Some of this is just related to regional dialects and is not cultural at all.

I know that many people think they can tell a Black person by the way they speak, however, there are large numbers of Black people that have never lived in a Black neighborhood, and you cannot tell them from any other person by listening to them speak.

Often people make the mistake of thinking that all people fit the mold of the people that hey are familiar with. Since we can't possibly know everyone person on this planet, what we think or believe is purely subjective and is not ground in truth or fact.

I am a bit surprised that this thread has not been riddled with attacks of racism. Wonder why I haven't heard; Only a very small percentage of Black people speak Ebonics and the majority fight the use of if in in their homes. Saying Black people, is painting all Black people with the same brush. You are just saying these things because you are a bigot and a racist?

I guess that only happens if the Black person comes from some place other than the US.

originally posted by: IslandOfMisfitToys
a reply to: Edumakated

So since my people were decimated at a rate that I have no idea what exact tribe I'm from and the fact my great grandmother squa was kidnapped by my not-so-great white grandfather I now should be able to flaunt the rules of society?

I appreciate your candid response but imo it's a cop out.

No doubt other groups have faced oppression. You really have to understand the damage that was done to the black psyche. A lot of that damage is still reflected in black culture today. Good hair vs kinky hair. Light skinned vs dark skinned. Acting white, etc. You also have to recognize that it really wasn't up until the late 70s when blacks really actually integrated. Slavery may have ended in 1865, but we still pretty much had segregation up until the late 60s and some might argue well until the late 70s in some areas.

The psychological damage of being told you are chattel basically for hundreds of years does not necessarily go away with the passing of a few laws.

Not making excuses, but until you understand the dynamics of slavery you won't understand how blacks sometimes view getting an education as selling out.

originally posted by: Slanter
a reply to: Edumakated

Excellent point! the Dichotomy of being a house slave vs a field slave must have been extremely polarizing. There's so many socio-political points to make on that... house slaves were probably more likely to be affected by Stockholm syndrome, so perhaps would have even viewed themselves as elevated above the field slaves and could have singled them out for mistreatment in a sort of "sh** rolls downhill" sort of situation. I also wonder if slave owners tended to get more attached to house slaves, treating them sort of as useful pets with genuine affection, while the field slaves would be traded and sold at a whim.

Definitely some food for thought, I think i'm gonna go fishing for some history on the web now.

Tarantino touched on this dynamic in Django with Sam Jackson's character, Steven.

The house slave / field hand dynamic is kind of the root of it. In addition, at some points after slavery, many light skinned blacks "passed" as white. Often times upper class. As a result, it created this situation where many viewed blacks who became successful as "selling out" or basically denying their heritage and culture.

It is a very difficult topic and just hard to explain.

a reply to: NightSkyeB4Dawn

I am a bit surprised that this thread has not been riddled with attacks of racism. Wonder why I haven't heard; Only a very small percentage of Black people speak Ebonics and the majority fight the use of if in in their homes. Saying Black people, is painting all Black people with the same brush. You are just saying these things because you are a bigot and a racist?

What do we call them? I have been criticized for calling them African-Americans, too.

There is always the reality that not all of this or that group is part of this or that practice, but at the same, no one can list every single individual who fits the description. Urban blacks? Blacks? American blacks? Blacks of slave descent? African-Americans? All of them fit to some degree but none of them are perfect.

I am tired for trying to use the proper label and always getting accused of being racist for doing so.

Perhaps I should just "that one group everyone knows I am talking about but we dare not actively name," but that doesn't work either because modern PC culture has way too many of those.

why do people hate blacks so much...

yes this thread will turn into a hate filled thread by pg3.

what about southern twain or slang spoken by whites in the south... how about a thread on that.

every spoken language in the forking universe uses niche specific slangs dialect and vernacular. .. its not about blacks..
go into country sides in the south see if you understand much of what people talk ,not just whites or blacks....
go to Australia, and venacular there will vary drastically from coast to coast.
i hope god exists...

What ever happened to ebonics? AND I thought you were gonna talk about English people who are black! I knew a black English dude, drank his whiskey with milk.

a reply to: ketsuko

I think we would all be happy to be called man, woman, sir, madam, lady, friend.... you get the idea.

I don't like it that we have to tag people as black, white, asian, pandas, Latino etc, but there are cultural differences that may never go away completely.
Funny thing, my racial makeup has the same constituents as latinos, but I am not latino... there is where the cultural difference means so much.