The Shroud of Turin - Did Jesus Resurrect?

While i have always known of the Shroud, I have never studied in depth the history or controversy that surrounds it. As an agnostic, I've become completely enthralled by its history, superstition, and influence.

And really, what better time to disuss the value of the Shroud of Turin than at Easter? The day that us western countries celebrate the resurrection of Christ by finding colorful chicken eggs and candy behind trees.

Hyperbole, sure. You can argue the history of Easter, but it doesn't change the facts that surround the Shroud.

The Shroud has defied carbon dating, written history, and science. There is more evidence that points to its authenticity than it being a fraud. It is arguably the most researched artifact in the history of mankind.

No other individual item has been responsible for such an intense social dichotomy as the Shroud.

No other artifact has been subjected to as much scientific scrutiny (dare I say "survived"), as the Shroud.

I don't know if it is authentic or not. But since I can't yet believe that is a forgery, I am awestruck by it. If it is a forgery, the artist should be recognized as one of the greatest. If it is not a forgery, then God help me.

a reply to: ghostrager

Jesus never existed but the church needs evidence showing he did.Why wouldn't they spend vast amounts of money to obtain a superb fake?It's all win for them.

You should probably provide links to the most reputable information you've encountered in your research...

Otherwise, your thread is just going to be inundated with debunkers presenting typical debunking 'sources' - there is a lot of disinfo on the shroud out there on the web...

Also, being fascinated with the shroud, you might find the "Sudarium of Oveido" interesting...

It is the cloth believed (and with much scientifically tested evidence) to have been placed over the face of the person (whether Jesus or not) who is imprinted on the Shroud of Turin while the body was being cleansed prior to being wrapped in the shroud..

Just make sure that when you google for the 'Sudarium' you check sources for the info very carefully - there's some controversy and debunking disinfo about it as with any 'religious artifact'..

I think you'd enjoy reading about the Sudarium and it's connection to the shroud.

Something interesting about the shroud...
how new details emerge with the development of greater technology...
For instance the shroud has been found to have writing on it that shows what he was charged with who passed sentence and what he endured...
And also x-ray like images revealing skeletal structure...
How the face cloth and shroud are a perfect match is pretty good also...

originally posted by: ghostrager
The Shroud has defied carbon dating...

No, it hasn't. Small samples of the shroud were sent to Arizona, Oxford, and Zurich for dating, and all three labs, operating indepently, came up with the same results, proving conclusively that the shroud's material dates back to 1260–1390 AD. This just so happens to be the same period that the shroud first appears in the church's history. Imagine that.

a reply to: AdmireTheDistance

This are old tests and are found to have been unconclusive due to contamination...

a reply to: AdmireTheDistance

Actually, it turned out that those samples had been taken from an area of the shroud which was not of the original material, but was material which had been carefully woven in to replace that of an area that had been damaged by fire during the middle ages - so the dates were correct for the time period that the repair was done...

BBC news - shroud older than thought

originally posted by: lostgirl
a reply to: AdmireTheDistance

Actually, it turned out that those samples had been taken from an area of the shroud which was not of the original material, but was material which had been carefully woven in to replace that of an area that had been damaged by fire during the middle ages - so the dates were correct for the time period that the repair was done...

I wasn't aware of that, if true. Do you happen to have a source?

a reply to: AdmireTheDistance

Just edited above to add link

originally posted by: lostgirl
a reply to: AdmireTheDistance

Actually, it turned out that those samples had been taken from an area of the shroud which was not of the original material, but was material which had been carefully woven in to replace that of an area that had been damaged by fire during the middle ages - so the dates were correct for the time period that the repair was done...

BBC news - shroud older than thought

A refutation of the 2005 Thermochimica Acta article:

llanoestacado.org...

The validity of the shroud is still debated it is perhaps one of the most tested artifact ever...

It has never been explained or effectively debunked...

Although at one time Radio carbon testing falsely accused it as a proven hoax...

I myself am religious and would love for it to be authentic, but I have no need to base my faith upon it one way or the other...

There are many extraordinary features found on the shroud...
The location of the wounds through the wrists when most people of the time took the bibles literal translation to mean that the palms of the hands were nailed...

Study has shown that nail placement was done through the wrists...
1 because of the enormous pain the major nerve would cause when damaged there....
2 because of the ability to support the weight of the body...as the crucified individuals would constantly be using thier arms to lift themselves upward to enable them to breath...

The life size accurate wounds from a roman flagellum that identically matches the wounds of the whipping...

The crown of thorns wounds to the skull...

Romans did not whip people and then crucify them the punishments were one or the other type deal...
No other documentation remarks on any other individual having a crown of thorns placed upon them...

The flow of the blood stains on the body is accurate to the position of a crucified body....
The blood stains are blood and the blood was not coagulated which is an indication of extreme injury before death...

Also prophesy stated that not a bone in his body shall be broken...
The practice of Romans was to break the legs of individuals to speed thier death...

Strange events unfolded at the time of the crucifixion as the sky was blackened and an earthquake transpired this is said to be the reason aside from the cries for mercy why Christ did not have his legs broken but instead had his side pierced by a spear...

This too matches the wounds on the shroud and besides blood fluid from the lungs is also found to be present...

The shroud is believed to have been given by Joseph of Aramethia and the fabric is believed to have been made from materials from Scotland....
Which is where Joseph was from....

Pollens found on the shroud are only found in the areas from which Christ lived and died and only around the time of his death are they in season...
I could go on and on...

originally posted by: AdmireTheDistance

originally posted by: ghostrager
The Shroud has defied carbon dating...

No, it hasn't. Small samples of the shroud were sent to Arizona, Oxford, and Zurich for dating, and all three labs, operating indepently, came up with the same results, proving conclusively that the shroud's material dates back to 1260–1390 AD. This just so happens to be the same period that the shroud first appears in the church's history. Imagine that.

Absolutely wrong on this account,

The head of the scientific team ROGERS whom took samples admitted there had probably been an error in the dating as the samples they took were a mixture of the original and the new sown in cloth material from the 1500's, they had taken material from these part's of the shroud which had been sown into it by the nun's following the fire at the cathedral and this material which was carbon dated therefore returned a combined result based on how much of each material had been tested and of course there relative carbon 14 values, of course then there is the problem with the pollen, while there is pollen from the region of Turin as you would expect there is also pollen from Israel.

There were also other factors to add to this, not only did the medieval nun's repair the damaged shroud following the great fire which melted the led reliquary it was kept in but it was of course exposed to high levels of fresh carbon in the form of the smoke and of course in all of that time was kept safe but not in the sterile conditions of a modern laboratory so it was exposed to bacteria as well which would of course infuse fresh carbon 14 schewing the date slightly.

Here is some reading.
www.innoval.com...
news.bbc.co.uk...
theosophical.wordpress.com...
www.telegraph.co.uk...
www.ncregister.com...
www.newgeology.us...
www.usatoday.com...

The Shroud was probably manufactured in ancient India and part of the trade routes that existed in the world at those times brought it to were it was used.
www.dailymail.co.uk...

It is likely the Shroud was a relic stolen from Constantinople during the last crusade, the one in which the Venetian merchant's blackmailed the Norman knight's into attacking there rival the christian city of Constantinople instead of there intended destination of Jerusalem, a tragedy which left the city broken and bankrupt so that the Turk's faced a far weaker and financially bankrupt city when they eventually arrived.

Now out of curiosity let us turn our attention to another cloth which IS from the 1500's, made of a material which should have fragmented long ago as it is essentially just a corse paper people once used to make Tilma's a type of poncho in the Aztec Empire.

Have you ever heard of the Cactus Cloth Tilma of Huan Diego?.

Have you ever heard of a 15th century artist whom would go to the detail of painting reflections into the eyes of an image, reflections correctly distorted to show the curve of the eyeball.

www.cruxnow.com...
www.csicop.org...
www.holyhillcross.com...
unsolvedmysteries.wikia.com...
www.jeaf.com...
www.miraclehunter.com...
infallible-catholic.blogspot.co.uk...

One of the importance's of this cloth is that it saved litterally millions of native lives from persecution, slavery (they were still enslaved but treated better than they would have been on the whole) and death by the Spanish, it did so by causing them to convert to Christianity and this was achieved by the Apparition Huan Diego saw having appeared on the hill were the shroud now has it's basilica in Mexico city, a hill which had been devoted to an Aztec Goddess called the Little Mother.
www.freerepublic.com...

Whatever your belief Miracles do happen, they may not fit your paradign of reality but that does not remove them from existence as real occurrences.

a reply to: 5StarOracle

Correct, there is a passage in the bible which say's DO NOT PUT GOD TO THE TEST, it is about faith not proof and for those that do not believe they never shall and they shall use all at there disposal to deny it, those that do probably will always find a way to reconcile there belief with arguments against it (I fall into this camp) and then there are those that remain undecided for whom neither the proof nor the belief are enough to convince them either way.

I've always looked at it and thought it looked more like a photo than a piece of cloth that had been wrapped around a human body.How would a wrap or shroud ever be able to pick up that much detail such as the hair,mouth,eyes and nose? You would only get that much detail if it was a photo (unlikely over a thousand years ago) or had been painted on by hand.

None of the tests done on the shroud have ever contained any of the blood stain samples. They were never allowed to sample the center of the fabric, only the extreme edges. These kinds of tests require destruction of the material (albeit a hole about the size of a paper punch).

It is like the church never wanted a definitive answer that would most likely provide. Nothing to fall back on if it showed the same age as what we have so far....

Keeping the mystery alive seems more important than the truth.

a reply to: ghostrager

Jesus was buried in an essenes tomb with 9 others I think.

A look alike, or a brother was crucified. Maybe a cousin.....(maybe a twin) maybe the real Jesus was crucified, and a look alike or family member carried on.....for a while.....

Jesus' son and daughter left the ME with their mother and grandmother. That much is true.

Jesus stayed and died with his essene tribe if he wasnt crucified.

Just my thoughts on it.

He hid from the apostles who usurped his teachings through peter and later paul.

I think all this side of the story was lost when Rome destroyed the temple and purged the area of Jews and the followers of Jesus, who tried to establish themselves in the major cities after his public "death".

Only those that left and went to the eastern empire remained to carry on.

Later to be perverted by paul, and later on by Constantine.

Mary magdalene was the first ROCK. This too is true.

originally posted by: timbolarian




A refutation of the 2005 Thermochimica Acta article:

llanoestacado.org...

Did you read the article ? At the begining of the article the author says that what he is about to say is "speculation". The bottom line with this artifact and many other things in life is.....it ALL comes down to faith. Because unless you become a scientist yourself and perform the tests yourself...you have to take what anyone says by faith.

We all know that most people have agendas and biases....and most scientists work toward proving their own position on any given subject..especially a subject of this nature.

I personally believe that the evidence leans toward it being authentic...but my opinion is based on the things that have been said about it and my own gut feelings based on what I have heard.

Thank you OP for bringing up this subject at this particular time...whether it can ever be proven one way or another doesnt matter...it is the wonder generated by it that fills a mind with hope.

a reply to: tadaman

I'm not familiar with the 9 others in a Essenes tomb? Do you recall where you saw that? I've tried to keep up with all the versions that one is new to me.

STM

Note: Sent you a message, Happy Easter

Awesome thread. I have always been intrigued by The Shroud. I am a Christian and with or without The Shroud, my faith is firm but just seeing photographs of it, humbles me.

a reply to: seentoomuch

Hey,

I have no idea where I heard, or read, or was told that. I am not a good mental librarian.

It was in the late 90s or early 2000s, they found a tomb of 10 essenes and the tenth body was "lost" as most things are on route to the museum. LOL

It had very telling injuries and was going to be a history changer....but then it went missing.

I wish I knew. It was in the same area as where the dead sea scrolls were found.

I THINK I heard it mentioned again on some discover channel show about the essenes and Jesus` possible link to their apocalypse cult which John the Baptist was the head of, forget which one of the communities that was.

Like I said, I am bad at filing. LOL

I take the truth I think is relevant and move on dismissing otherwise useful information for questions such as yours.

I will try to remember or just see if I cant look it up somewhere and post it here.

It has to be pretty well documented on the internet-

Have a good one kind person

Hold it down.

and HAPPY EASTER!