Why can't Libertarians have social programs?

a reply to: John_Rodger_Cornman

Now thats getting down to the very core basics of society at its most basic functions.

a reply to: Maxatoria

If taxes are optional they are no longer theft but public charity.

originally posted by: Maxatoria

originally posted by: Metallicus
a reply to: John_Rodger_Cornman

The whole idea of personal liberty is making your own choices. The rights of the individual SHOULD trump those of society or the state. No one is stopping you from giving whatever you like to whomever you want. I give money to things that matter to me. You give things to what matters to you. You know, that whole freedom thing you guys like to ignore.

Depending on how you read it it does mean that your views are better than everyone elses around you and even more important than those of the state government, but you expect those rights at the same time to be supported by the system while almost denying the system its power to grant such rights in the first place.

The government does not " grant" us rights.

We have them, and grant the government the authority to enforce laws.

You seem to view the government citizen interaction as more of a king appointed by god, that then allows us our rights..... You aren't any American are you?

originally posted by: Maxatoria
a reply to: Metallicus

That could be very controversial if you considered that you had the right to rape a 5 year old etc (not that you would) but society has certain values it see's fit to consider as the base line of normal behaviour as it tries and brings both sides of individual freedoms under some sort of rules.

As a Libertarian believes that they should be left alone by government and laws should only be against someone hurting others , that makes your entire post irrelevant.

originally posted by: Sargeras
The government does not " grant" us rights.

We have them, and grant the government the authority to enforce laws.

You seem to view the government citizen interaction as more of a king appointed by god, that then allows us our rights.....

Nothing like a false dichotomy.

You aren't any American are you?

Right, because nobody, anywhere, every, stands up against authority. Only americans where able to do that.

originally posted by: Sargeras

The government does not " grant" us rights.

We have them, and grant the government the authority to enforce laws.

What are these rights you think you have outside of the rights given to you by this country? Because "rights" change from country to country, so this is just a plain old false statement. You have the rights you have because you happen to have parents that birthed you in this country. And depending on your gender, race and wealth, your rights are bought, expanded, contracted, respected, or disrespected.

Sure, you can do whatever you want... be it kill a whole slew of people, buy a coke at the corner store, rape someone against their will etc. Is that what you mean by rights? Because most people don't think that it what it means. There are consequences to these actions, due to laws, that we as a legacy society (you know, that thing you are a part of) created. Within those laws are where your "rights" lie.

And please, don't bring religion or some sort of hokey 'god given rights' into it, cause that is absolutely unprovable, and thankfully has no bearing in this country. After all, if god gave people rights, they would be the same in every country, which obviously, they are not.

Rights are just limits to force/power.

Without trust no would have no rights. Everyone agrees and trusts the government with power. The government is designed to limit the power/force of the individual. Everyone agrees that government should have limits to its power/force.

Rights = Trust that there are limits to individual or government force/power.