Here Be Dragons...

Keeping in line with the ATS Skunk Works Forum premise, I thought I'd post some thoughts of mine I've pondered over the past few decades.

Being fascinated with ancient cultures and Civilizations almost my entire life. I've often wondered about some of their early myths/legends and deities origins. How, in my mind could I rationalize the concept of the earliest forms of Human cultures and Civilizations having "Myths" ? Does our true history go back further than we have been taught? But, this thread isn't about that directly, No, it's an amalgamation of a few ATS forum topics drawn together and presented here in Skunk works with of course an outside the box spin of mine for your reading and contemplation pleasure.

Firstly, lets begin with the extinction of the Dinosaurs, We know they existed, we have their fossilized bones, eggs and nests etc. Secondly, we know there are modern extant species related to the period of the Dinosaurs rein. Yes, you see the Coelacanth isn't really the only known living fossil. It comes to us from roughly 75 million years ago, or, rather, a variant there of. See, this is where things in my mind, get rather interesting. Let's turn the clock back to a time near the end of the Dinosaurs for a minute. We know through the fossil record they were evolving feathers. But why? Was there some form of gradual climate change taking place and they were simply adapting to cooler temperature which just by chance was interrupted by the whole mass extinction that we know took place?

It appears that many species were developing feather like adaptations not just the smaller ones which we are taught is where modern birds descend from. But let's go back to the "Living Fossils" for a second. The modern Crocodiles/alligators are a form of living fossil, so are turtles.

Let's take a quick peak...

Carbonemys cofrinii is an extinct podocnemidid turtle known from the early Paleocene Cerrejón Formation of Colombia, 60 million years ago, about five million years after the KT extinction event. In 2005, the holotype specimen was discovered in a Colombian coal mine by a North Carolina State doctoral student named Edwin Cadena. It had a shell that measured about 1.72 metres (5 ft 8 in), making it one of the world's largest turtles. Carbonemys' jaws were massive and would be powerful enough to eat a crocodile.

Deinosuchus is an extinct genus related to the alligator that lived 80 to 73 million years ago (Ma), during the late Cretaceous period. The name translates as "terrible crocodile" and is derived from the Greek deinos (δεινός), "terrible", and soukhos (σοῦχος), "crocodile". The first remains were discovered in North Carolina (United States) in the 1850s; the genus was named and described in 1909. Additional fragments were discovered in the 1940s and were later incorporated into an influential, though inaccurate, skull reconstruction at the American Museum of Natural History. Knowledge of Deinosuchus remains incomplete, but better cranial material found in recent years has expanded scientific understanding of this massive predator.

Other than size and small variations on a theme they are still with us despite the amount of time that has passed and if it weren't for human activity and territorial encroachment would be much more numerous. So, science tells us that Birds and some reptiles and a few other specie survived in some form, the mass extinction to this very day. I don't have issues with the vast majority of Dinosaurs perishing, but not all, in my humble opinion succumbed.

Feathered Serpents

The Feathered Serpent
was a prominent supernatural entity or deity,
found in many Mesoamerican religions.
It was called Quetzalcoatl among the Aztecs, Kukulkan among the Yucatec Maya,
and Q'uq'umatz and Tohil among the K'iche' Maya.

Feathered Serpent The double symbolism used in its name is considered allegoric to the dual nature of the deity, where being feathered represents its divine nature or ability to fly to reach the skies and being a serpent represents its human nature or ability to creep on the ground among other animals of the Earth, a dualism very common in Mesoamerican deities

Interesting description huh? We don't seem to have anything in our 'Modern' animal kingdom lineup that fits the bill. However, we do in the fossil record. Imagine that. Before we really get into that aspect what does wiki have to say about the description....?

The concept though, where did it originate in the human mind? Think about it for a second in our modern terms. A feathered Reptile. Where have we in modern scientific terms heard of this? Yes, You're catching on.



No, this isn't as far fetched as some would have you believe. See, the deal is, that we have in our earliest myths tales of such creatures existing. We also have, in our modern scientific realms proof and such early physical adaptions occurring. We also have living fossils from Earths archaic past with us today. Why is it such a stretch to imagine isolated pockets of certain prehistoric specie existing right up till Homo Sapien found them either good to eat or a threat to life and limb that needed to be eliminated?

Maybe...

Some were venerated?



This seems to have been a repeated pattern all throughout human history and all throughout the four corners of the world. I've posted many times here over the years at ATS that I've often thought that the legends or dragons in my mind could only have two real origins

1.) Dinosaur fossils were found in ancient times and people created stories and myths about what they were based on their fossilized skeletal remains.

or

2.) Some form of Dinosaurs survived in isolated pockets and were sometimes hunted and feared, while in others, were venerated and idolized.

If the second were true, then this would explain why in Ancient Egypt, Sumer, China and yes, in the New World, they were given descriptions of being feathered. IF, their evolutionary track were allowed to continue, then they would have developed full fledged feathers not just the basic rudimentary beginnings as we find in the fossil record.


Proof?

I don't have much except in the way of conjecture obviously. But, Let's consider what science tells us about mans migration out of Africa. I feel Humanity, AKA 'Homo something or other', Be it Neanderthal, Denisovan and or yet to be classified/discovered upright cousin/tool user. The 'New world" the Americas were not supposedly colonized until around 18 to 20 thousand B.C. Which gives us a huge span of time of undisturbed habitats for such creatures to prosper in their natural environment.

The jungles of Central and South America are notoriously brutal on fossil hunting due to the fact that any carcass left would quickly be consumed and or, biodegrade rapidly. That's a scientifically proven fact in those regional environments.

North America?

The problem there is that during the last ice, it covered huge portions of the northern latitudes under a mile of so of ice and anything from a certain period until a more hospitable period would have been crushed, then ground to dust and later washed away due to massive periodic flooding from melt offs leaving just massive geological scaring. Which is what we find with our modern topographical evidence.

In a recent thread of mine I asked a basic question regarding a later period of Earths history and I'll quote....

originally posted by: SLAYER69
Which calls into question that if most all other mammalian specie grew to enormous sizes [Mega Fauna] period, why wouldn't there have been a large Homo?

See, here again. We look at a textbook or are seated in some class and the information given is often biased or simply incomplete and any variation from the preferred theme is frowned upon. Why? Not to beat a dead horse to death about Giants in the New World and the mound builders but there again, I have to ask are we missing the bigger picture of our planets rather diverse and extremity tenacious way of developing life?

Could our Homo Sapien egos be preventing us from truly exploring our planets and our own biological history simply based on either the proffered scientific or religious dogma forced upon us?

I think so.

How about you?

Personally?
I have always believed that Some form of dinosaurs had survived, for early humans to see. I've just thought that since I was young and first read about them.
So to me? Your theory makes sense.

Thanks for sharing.

Slayer, well done. Your threads are one of the main reasons for anyone to join this site. This one didn't disappoint. I don't usually post my own opinions but I generally follow your way of thinking.

a reply to: SLAYER69

Excellent post. I have always thought that people actually saw animals like this at one time in order for them to be so pervasive in writing and art. S&F

a reply to: SLAYER69

If this was an assigned report for any possible academic classes, and I was the teacher grading it, you would be the "star student" who put passion and thought into it. Amazing work as always Slayer, thanks for sharing this fantastic information. History, ancient civilizations, dinosaurs, myths, these are all of my favorite topics bundled into one great thread.

S & F!!!!

I like the way you think man. Anyone that looks into ancient history that refuses to lie to themselves understands that there was much more to this planet than just the current age. Something that always stood out to me is that we can all agree we are the most advanced form of primate on this planet, but there are many others variations out there that we have seen with our own eyes. Who's to say that will all the different species of dinosaur that roamed the earth, could there have been one variation that could have matched us or surpassed us in intellect and ability? If so, let's say this advanced species had a more "peaceful" time than us and actually evolved to leave the planet when faced with an extinction level event.... we're talking millions of years in potential evolution.... look how far technology has come in 2,000 years. It'd be even more crazy if they returned and assisted us in evolving back in the beginning in the hope of not being alone. I could see us as an experiment, designed to seek our enlightened selves before being allowed to evolve. It'd be even more crazy if nibiru was real and each time it passed earth, it dropped the van allen belt exposing us to never experienced radiation for a significant amount of time, stimulating our evolution.... everything evolves, humans reach a new plane of existence and are required to usher in a new species as before. .... the ultimate cycle of life on Earth according to God's first plan. I only say these things after gaining understanding into the Emerald tablets of Thoth.... there's much more to Thoth than people know. He's taken on many forms from the beginning of civilization and even further back, he WAS referred to as "the First and the Last."

I agree with you Slayer. I've been thinking the same for a long time but you just put it into written words.

Isn't it Marco Polo that said the Chinese used dragons to tow carriages? I don't have a link, but I seem to recall hearing/reading about it.

Also, there is this old temple in Cambodia, with a representation of a stegosaurus, and the temple isn't a 1000 years old...

Dinosaurs?

This would indicate dinosaurs still roamed the earth not long ago, no? I mean the supposed extinct ones? haha

a reply to: SLAYER69

[Snip]ing great thread! I've thought along the same lines - love your write-up and the factors you've considered. This is like a 'Skunkworks' thread, but without the stinky smell

a reply to: SLAYER69

In "The Cosmic Serpent - DNA and the Origins of Knowledge" by Jeremy Narby, an Anthropologist investigating correlations between world wide serpent myths and DNA (trust me, you just have to read it), the Native American Thunderbird is also related to the South American feathered serpent gods.

I agree there could have been a species of feathered giant serpent though, which certainly seems possible. Dragons seem to be dinosaur-like.

Thanks for a thought provoking OP.

This is the reason I joined ATS. Threads like this. Insightful, thought provoking, questioning things without the "100% proof" tag. Great thread Slayer! Thank you for the read!

Excellent as always slayer.. You deserve the plaudits above.
I also agree with your post.. Good stuff

a reply to: SLAYER69

Do you remember that dino bone they found with the soft tissue, suggested that carbon dating of these fossils never been done correctly?

Well they found another Medullary bone again science are speculating that it may contain T-rexDna .

I can't really tell if man walked the dinosaurs.

But dinosaurs alway triggered our fascination and unimaginable idea that they lived around our time period.

Now some say DNA can't hold all those secrets for million of years .

Also looking at the early ancient banners and shields that holds the markings of dragons or dinosaurs, one almost think we might have walked with them ?

Maybe giants that are described in biblical texts are the real descended and missing link between dinosaurs and mankind as it is now ?

a reply to: SLAYER69

Man, as a species, is arrogant.

We knew the earth was flat, until it wasn't.
We knew that swinging a dead cat over your head would get rid of warts, until we didn't.
We knew that dinosaurs died out millions of years ago, until the coelacanth.

I look forward to tomorrow. I wonder what we'll learn then.

a reply to: SLAYER69

Yet another chin stoker. S&F.

I would stop short of suggesting dragons are dinosaurs-I would lean towards megafauna.

In Australia there are tales of the Bunyip or Yowie and the descriptions sound like a sighting of the long gone Diprotodon-a Giant marsupial the size of a small car that once roamed the landscape and there are tales of a giant Kangaroo-another species that also existed. If such animals can exist on land then they may exist in the air as well. I made a thread about ancient critters and the largest 'bird' in existence, quetzalcoatlus, was as tall as a giraffe.

The largest wingspan these days belongs to the wandering albatross-which is longer than a man is tall. Perhaps some kind of Mega avian remained in existence long enough to spawn tales of dragons, however the only large megafauna avian I know of is the Terror bird and that was flightless, maybe one day fossil evidence will be found.

a reply to: SLAYER69

Dinosaurs almost certainly played a part in dragon folklore, but I think also more modern animals, like for example the skull of a woolly rhinoceros found in Austria in the 1600's, also played a large part in perpetuating the dragon myth.

a reply to: SLAYER69
Interesting thread. I'll make sure I check back when I have more time. I just wanted to add that Papua New Guinea has a cryptid whose description is like a pterodactyl. It's supposedly attacked people and eaten them up into modern times. The only thing is it's nocturnal and also bio luminescent.

a reply to: NowanKenubi

I'd never heard of or seen this before. I'm kinda speechless at the moment.

I actually think what you propose is a strong possibility.

Me and my other half were also discussing th e other day the possibility of a dinosaur species developing higher intelligence considering the length of their reign. Something for another thread maybe, although there is no proof of course.

Another huge clue...

Prior to 1841 dinosaurs were called dragons.

As late as the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, many serious scholars were studying animal life, recording what they saw, and claiming personally to have seen dragons (dinosaurs).

When you look at the problem of dinosaur extinction this way, you quickly learn, if you really want to, that large creatures with reptilian characteristics, some flying, some two-legged, some four-legged, some marine, appear in the art, sculpture, literature, chronicles, and legends of virtually every culture in world history. But none of them were called "Dinosaurs" because the word wasn't invented until the early 1800's!"..Tom Willis, CSA

Literature, Art & History Crawling with Dinosaurs