This video changed my opinion on the refugee 'crisis', probably for the better

‘With Open Gates: The forced collective suicide of European nations’

I don't really know how to put down what I think about the whole refugee crisis thing after watching this, and after thinking about it for the past couple of months. The logical part of me thinks "It's just right wing propaganda" but it's not like there aren't facts to back up the claims made and for the first time in my life I'm going against my original beliefs in thinking that Europe's made it's worst mistake in decades.

I understand that there are people who genuinely need help, and want a better life for themselves, but such is life - That among those good people, there will be an ever increasing number of bad people. Bad people that don't care about your countries culture but are more than happy to endorse theirs and in some cases push it on people. We've already seen the increase of 'Islamic extremism' in the UK in the past 10+ years, with clerics like Anjem Choudary publicly announcing that one day Britain will be an Islamic country - The thing is I used to think he was alone, or only had a small group of following but he doesn't, and when you have an idiot like that spouting mindless nonsense, unbelievably but inevitably people will listen and follow.

You only have to look at the past year or so in Europe, not even the numerous large terrorist attacks that have happened but the increase of sexual attacks, violence against the natives etc. It all makes sense now, really. But to be honest, another part of me thinks the west deserve it, since this is just a backlash of the Iraq war, to which I've never agreed with yet it's killed up to a million innocent people.

I'll state again, I do know that these people are a 'small minority' of the people who genuinely need help but for how long are we going to call them a small minority? They've probably been saying that for 15+ years, and that number can only increase, not decrease. I finally understand the thinking of the 'closing the boarders' state of mind and I'm beginning to agree with it.

I guess all we can do right now is try and keep ourselves and loved ones safe, because I can only really see it getting worse from here out for people living in Europe.

There has to be facilitated assimilation if this is to work. Sure, there are legitimate refugees but there are also so many dodgy people getting through and they are going to find it so hard to assimilate into a European way of living on their own given they will group together and continue with the mindset of their life prior to the move. When disillusioned or pushed into a corner, they will get agitated and retaliate.

It's almost as though the world has become too PC to look at this issue objectively. Families with kids and legit kids should be let through and assimilated. They can keep beliefs that follow the laws of the land. I think that's only fair. Cultural artefacts can be assimilated too e.g. festivals. But any Mickey Mouse ideas must go away as a prerequisite to being allowed in. Anyone who comes in then does something against the law of the land should be immediately deported. Giving away free money is stupid but if not then how would one help legit refugees assimilate?

Open borders with the sheer number of people going through unchecked is madness. The world is going to have to look at a new system which sees their home countries rebuilt in earnest so they can return because right now it's like someone has fallen off the edge of the cliff, they're holding on to you and panicking and will end up pulling the both of you into the abyss. Either that or a universal benefit that is actually GLOBAL so that all people can afford to live properly where they are. This was ISIS numbers will drop as will potential recruits who just hate the way society doesn't care about their wellbeing.

There must be a zero tolerance policy toward any untoward activity against its citizens. There is a problem, the problem will grow and to pretend it won't is sticking one's head in the ground. If you're obese and continue drinking sugary drinks, you're silly. How a cleric in the UK can preach hate and endorse violence and hide behind 'freedom of speech' beats me. Now of course FOS is necessary to be able to call the govt. or whoever out on their BS but direct brainwashing in a malicious way against the citizens and their peace is out of hand. If you don't like it, go away. Pretty simple. If we were all a bunch of mates and some guy came and started calling us names, we'd say go off on your way, when you learn to be nice, we can all be a bunch of mates and live happily ever after.

My idea is not perfect, i don't claim it to be - together we must come up with real world solutions and not just look the other way in an effort to be PC and pandering to our sense of righteousness rather than get swept away with the rhetoric on our sides of the fence for this and many other issues that are indirectly linked will affect humanity (think about the coming food shortages - loss of habitable land - sea rise affecting almost all modern cities etc)

Thank you for this horrible post. I am waking up this morning to a nightmare. Is there any hope anywhere? I am glad that I am old, and ashamed that my years have produced such a lacking wisdom. We seem to have a faulty vision. If we've, the entire world, ever needed a messiah, it's now. But even that sounds inadequate.

What can we do, but be kind to the person next to us, and hope they share the same. But...?

a reply to: conz1992

If the number of people coming in increases, then the percentage of evil doers might not change. The total number of evil doers will, but the percentage need not. Therefore, the evil doers remain in the minority, no matter what the total number of migrants might be.

Do you follow that logic?

So, just because a greater number of humans are arriving, does not mean that a greater number, a majority, are going to be evil doers, but it does mean that there might be more evil people around.

However, given that western foreign policy over the last forty years or more is directly connected to how the terror wave which is breaking now, came to pass, I would say complaining about consequences is somewhat weak. We have sown, and so must we reap. To complain about our fear of the consequences of our nations actions on the intelligence front, is unseemly and in poor taste, given the pain those actions, that we paid our governments to be complicit in, have caused.

We need to put on our big boy pants, so to speak, and stop acting indignant about the danger we have put ourselves in by continuing to support agendas which necessitate the proxy war ethic. Perhaps when that has been behind us for a few decades, we might be able to be legitimately in possession of righteous indignation. Until then, keeping our chins on display might be wise.

a reply to: ClownFish

Nicely said!



Sig:
VIKINGS

a reply to: ragsntatters

Yeah I've read a few things that said refugees have been let off from criminal offenses due to 'cultural differences', I'd say fine if it was stealing from a shop or something but these reported it was sexual assaults. I'm not 100% sure if the place I read it was legit so don't take my word for it. But yeah basically there needs to be way more thought into it rather than 'we'll let in over a million people then account for them after', that isn't sensible at all. Like you said integration is needed to live in peace, when a community doesn't integrate or feels pushed out of society they stay in their own little area and that's that. But the fact is it's in their culture to have a lot more children on average to a European family, so over time these little areas become larger etc. Until you have a large zone which seems exclusively for the ones who were once pushed out, to be honest I need to re-think most of what I know or think about the situation because it goes quite deep

a reply to: TrueBrit

Yeah I agree with that, my biggest problem is that 'we' the civilians are not to blame for what happened to their countries but it's our leaders and corporations. But then I do understand that they killed untold amounts of civilians, so they would be looking to reciprocate. Again, it is only a small minority and you rightly said it will always be a small minority but it's still there, who knows if the number is growing or not. I assume it grows.

a reply to: TrueBrit

I agree that big boy pants must be put on in order to deal with this issue if one truly wishes to resolve the issue holistically. Are the people ready for it? Do they even know all the moving parts or is the new American Idol show results show more important? There needs to be something like a Reddit thread where people who aren't blind can go and work on a solution together that is then fasttracked through the law making process rather than being treated as a long term, vote winning agenda. It's all so complicated that I think only pooled people computing power (hive mind) will be able to solve it - govt.s are tied up in too much red tape and personal agendas.

Even if dodgy people numbers stay constant e.g. 1000/mth. With there being more pressure being put on the resources dedicated to the migrant crisis - we will see the rogue elements being able to recruit more to their ranks as people get more desperate. 6 months on, you now have 6000 rogues as well as another maybe 4000 as an example. So in a way increased overall numbers will result in increased rogue numbers. 6000 is way too much to begin with anyway. Even 60 could take out a town I reckon.

a reply to: conz1992

It's nice that you're able to change your thinking--that's a rare trait these days, especially when the issue at hand is highly politicized.

I'm one of those on ATS who have always thought that relatively unchecked refugee approval (either because our system is lacking or because the country from which they come has extremely lacking personal records on people) is something that should be either curbed until we can better assess an individual's intent after coming into our country, or stopped altogether for countries whose record keeping inhibits our ability to properly vet incoming refugees.

Many people consider that to be heartless and not within the spirit of American ("Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore..." and all of that). But what these people fail to consider is that it's the first job of our federal government to do what is in the best interest of our country and our citizens, not citizens of the rest of the world. If certain actions--approving refugees, in this case--have the proven and ongoing possibility of causing harm to Americans, the government has a duty to stop that action.

Of course, that's just my heartless, illogical opinion that is based on concern for our citizens and the logic that with a massive influx, there will be bad guys with ill intent.

a reply to: conz1992

Suicide by world copper, eh?

The logical part of me thinks "It's just right wing propaganda" but it's not like there aren't facts to back up the claims made and for the first time in my life I'm going against my original beliefs in thinking that Europe's made it's worst mistake in decades.

Sure. Must've been our biggest mistake not to let those refugees die at those shiny new hungarian border fences. Irrational fearmongering is the only hope left, what else?

Well done! Now fill your pants and run in circles, please! I really like how you folks make a Dick Cheney out of yourselves with your 'concerns' about us Europeans. How about ending your War on Terror for good if you wanna help? No? More narcissistic and paternalist BS from breitbart it is.

Awesome!

a reply to: conz1992

Yup agreed, I don't think people look at the whole picture with all the moving parts at play because in whatever little time they do have to look into such things, they take on whatever appears on the surface which is then repeated by the media.

Surely there's also anti migrant propaganda at play too which influences people into thinking migrant = bad however what the world should be addressing is the root cause as well as the very real possibilities of the effects of this crisis and then address is swiftly otherwise it's headed for disaster e.g. far right groups beating up innocent migrants which will then cause an us/them divide between legit migrants and natives.

Yeah I'm still trying to figure out all the moving parts and empathise with all stakeholders in this to get to a solution. Any solution I find would have to go through the hive mind and imposed by the people on their govt's otherwise all the chip calling and politicking will result in problems much greater than we currently see.

The world needs to start looking beyond a 4 year election cycle horizon and wonder about how the world would and could be in 20-40 years. Religion is silly anyway - there should be universal, humanity laws that all humans inherently want - then maybe we can have less madness.

a reply to: conz1992
You mean it stirred the irrational fear factor in you. Here's some facts:

Jihadi John - British since 1994 when he was six years old
Lee Rigby Killers :
Michael Olumide Adebolajo - born in Lambeth to a Christian family.
Michael Oluwatobi Adebowale - born in Denmark Hill, South London to a Christian family.

Closing borders will have ZERO effect on this type of radicalised killer.

The only solution to the Jihadi John problem would be to deport everyone who has emigrated to here from a muslim country including all their children even if born here.

The solution to the Lee Rigby killers is to deport everyone of African descent even if born here irrespective of their religion!

I'm old enough to remember the 70's and 80's and the IRA campaign. That was far far more intense than the current islamic terrorism. Have a look at the list of UK terrorist attacks, the number of IRA attacks swamps the islamic ones.

We never closed the border with Ireland and yet here we are with no more bombing. The only way to resolve the current islamic terrorist problem is to eliminate ISIS and affiliated groups. Unfortunately everyone except ISIS is busy arguing and some even fighting amongst themselves whilst ISIS picks up the fallout. In Africa you have so much fricking corruption that these extreme groups have a field day!

The consequences of all this diplomatic failure and ongoing conflict is waves of refugees. They are tired people, tired of having the cr.p bombed out of them, tired of a multi sided civil war with no end in site, tired of living in fear. As one refugee interviewed in a camp in Lebanon, where the aid is running out, stated :

If I stay here I die, if I go back home I die, what choice do I have.

a reply to: yorkshirelad

I'm sorry but you can't compare the IRA to ISIS. We didn't flatten Ireland or take out their leaders to cause a power struggle for an extremist terrorist organization to appear and take hold of the situation. This uprising I believe is a direct impact from our involvement in the long, long Iraq war. Lee Rigby killers were homegrown terrorists and yes, I'm aware these exist. "Closing the boarders" would greatly limit the amount of terrorists, I believe we could deal with the homegrown ones if we really had to.

If I stay here I die, if I go back home I die, what choice do I have

They kind of answered their own question. I've spent my life being compassionate to others but that often leads me to then ignore the bigger picture. I'm tired of that, tired of worrying or thinking what it must be like to be in their shoes but I'm not, and I'm thankful for that. It's just what life throws at you,

a reply to: SlapMonkey

I'm not one who changes my mind easily, but I've been on the fence about this for months and it just seems silly to me not to have a standing on either side. But yeah, generally no one wants unchecked refugees coming into their country from the Middle East. My first thoughts were 'it's going to be so easy for isis to smuggle people in', I'd actually endorse stricter boarder checks, much like Australia has. I'm not sure what the case is for America and the refugees but I imagine the checks will be pretty tight after the past year in Europe

Your facts fly in the face of those who say this is to do with foreignpolicy in their lands doesnt it? A lot are British, French, Belgium citizens who have never lived in the Middle East and are third generation. This is to do with what they are taught in privatein the family. There was a documentary on a few months ago called being gay and muslim. It was a British muslim who was gay and eho had had to separate from his family. He said he would never be accepted and that from being young he had been taught to not mix with the infidel, hate the infidel.

The fathef of the 16 year old girl who joined ISIS last year (the ine clutching the teddy bear) blamed British authorities but then it emerged he had been on protests calling for Sharia Law in Britain and burning American flag.

A British muslim interviewed by Katie Hopkins on radio said he wouldnt allow hischildren to go to mosque anymore because he was scared of of his children being radicalised and he said he was uncomfortable with some of the muslim community who have arrived in receny years and are more radical, he couldnt talk about it because he couldnt trust who was who.

The good muslims need to deal with this within their communities a d find out why young people are becoming radicalised and stop saying its nothing to do with Islam!.

a reply to: yorkshirelad

a reply to: conz1992

"Closing the boarders" would greatly limit the amount of terrorists, I believe we could deal with the homegrown ones if we really had to.

And I can't see how we're supposed to get rid of all our domestic terrorists. Taking the democracy back from the mil.-industrial complexes would be a pretty hard stunt to pull off.

There is no political sulution in sight at all, except for some unrest in southern Europe via Podemos and such. People are way too friggen lazy to research this topic thoroughly and thus the debate usually circles around refugees as potential terrorists and rapists.

Well. When folks are drumpf enough to buy that crap they obviously deserved their walls.

a reply to: PublicOpinion

You know you've lost an argument when you have to post John Oliver lol.

And as I mentioned in my previous posts and what it mentioned in the video in the OP, most of the refugees are fine. Others are not, what are we meant to do? Excuse a man for raping a child because of cultural difference? Please.

There's many political things that can be done, put out a statement, strengthen boarder control. As for homegrown terrorists I believe we have good enough police force to deal with it. Of course it doesn't mean we're 100% safe from attacks, but at least if the boarders were more securely checked there would be less of a chance of extremists sneaking in

a reply to: conz1992

On the (alleged) "refugee" crisis, there is one aspect that I find fascinating.

In the lands where many of these "refugees" come from, the accepted customs are blatantly misogynistic. One common practice is that women are forbidden from venturing out alone. People in the West are always quick to point out this as a fault (which I agree with).

However, as the number female victims of assault in the West grows, the leaders in some areas tell women that they should not go out alone.

So is it really a stretch to say that the "refugees" are conquerors? By default, they are transforming the West into the Middle East. Women are not allowed out in their home nations... and now women are (essentially) not allowed out in some parts of the West.

Other areas that are following suit are the growing number of public establishments that are removing pork from their menus and new "guidelines" that essentially dictate that females dress more conservatively.

Strange days...

a reply to: eluryh22

Well indeed, if it carries on the way it is then who knows what will be the norm in 20-30 years.

I have a funny image in my head of a leftist/SJW trying to decide if 'women can wear what they want' or 'appease the refugees and their customs', sometimes all you can do is laugh

a reply to: conz1992

I think the thing is, that we are angry at the response we suffer from, but we are not prepared in the main to change our leaders for the better, by getting out in the street and protesting, by making everything they want to do impossible, by dragging them out of their homes and shaming them for their violation of our trust, and the murderous intent they have shown on our behalf.

So, given that we know the reality, why do we not act, and since we do not act, why should those who suffer from our appeasement of the political class, see us as any different to those who have hijacked our nation from under us for their own ends?

The reality is that my government, the government of most of Europe, the US, AND Russia to boot, are rogue governments, not under the control of their people, not beholden to the will of their people, and whose every move on the geopolitical front is not made for the benefit of the people on whose behalf it is made, but for the benefit of individuals and corporations external to those governments, and not a part of the societies those governments actually serve.

We do nothing to stop our leaders from creating enemies. The least we can do is stop being so easily manipulated that we not only allow other nations to be bombed and invaded, and ruined by intelligence meddling, but that we also allow our opinions of our governments victims to become so polarised and negative as they often are.

a reply to: conz1992

If these immigrants really wanted to escape ISIS and wars In their country, maybe they should have taken up arms and fought to take back their country? They sure harbor enough violence, so maybe they should have put all that pent up hostility and anger towards defeating what they're supposedly running from? They're crying to escape the internal fighting in their country, but than act like the same barbaric and violent terrorist groups they're fleeing.

No country should have to put up with people who are asking for refuge, who than turn around and riot, engage in violence and push their ideology on the law abiding citizens of that country. These immigrants come from a history of internal fighting, barbaric laws, and radical Islamic beliefs. Accepting them is just a recipe for the destabilization of the host country.