Stars of the Hill Map

originally posted by: Ectoplasm8
In April 1965, a year after Betty drew her map, the New York Times published a map that showed an area near the constellation Pegasus the Russians believed intelligent radio signals were originating:

After Betty saw this, she was struck by the similarities and drew her map with the corresponding names next to the planets/stars:

Concerning this NY Times interpretation...

Is ther a better listing of the stars on that map? I'm asking because I've never seen that before, and would like to check it out...

Unfortunately, only 8 of the stars are named, and several of those names don't check out when compared to my "propernames" table...

I'm also noticing that there isn't even a remote match between the two images you posted...

In any case I would like to see a better listing of the star's names...one that can be easily read would be nice (as opposed to the low-rez mush of the current images).

Okay, I've had an opportunity to evaluate the New York Times star list...

Star Class Dist
___________________
Alpheratz A3 97
Algenib B2 390
Baham A2 92
Enif K2 690
Homam B8 204
markab B9 133
Matar G2/F0 167
Scheat M2 196

Of these stars, none are suitable for the kind of life that might make them interesting, or have a "trading" opportunity. Most are the wrong class for advanced sentient life, most are for too young to have life at all. With two exceptions they are too far away to be considered as a candidate for the map, unless it is a map with no logical point or purpose.

These stars appear to be a selection made by a journalist with no knowledge of Astronomy beyond being able to spell the word. It is completely worthless except as a distraction from truth and reality...

a reply to: tanka418

I've used road maps cos I'm old and truly enjoy the wonder of gazing upon the majesty of Hubble photos. Okay who doesn't?

None of those images remain in my brain to sketch out.

Betty Hill gets to be counted as someone who had a photographic memory. It doesn't make rational sense to me.

No I don't discount what she said and don't know enough to argue with you on that point any wise. What makes you so sure she could recall so much detail when damn near everyone else cannot?

originally posted by: bonesymphony
a reply to: tanka418

I've used road maps cos I'm old and truly enjoy the wonder of gazing upon the majesty of Hubble photos. Okay who doesn't?

None of those images remain in my brain to sketch out.

Betty Hill gets to be counted as someone who had a photographic memory. It doesn't make rational sense to me.

No I don't discount what she said and don't know enough to argue with you on that point any wise. What makes you so sure she could recall so much detail when damn near everyone else cannot?

Agreed. I would be more willing to give it credit if it was of similar shape but with a few mistakes here and there as it would seem to me more like a true memory. Although I guess then people would criticise it for not being an exact matchup so really you can't win!

One thing I have never understood about these abduction reports is that there is a recurring theme of these beings telling the abductee's a few snipets about what they are doing, where they are from and/or a little bit about their intentions. E.g. the 'Your destroying your planet and are in grave danger' is quite a common one. It's like these beings have a message they really want to get across. But then afterwards they erase the abductee's memory so that it has to be relearnt through hypnosis? It seems very strange to me to give someone a message and then erase their memory of said message.

One argument you could make is they might intend for their abductee's to learn the message and then retain it only subconsciously. But sometimes it seems like you end up stretching things further and further to try and find a reason to justify a false memory.

Like the poster above, I'm not a complete skeptic. I do believe in aliens. I'm just agnostic when it comes to whether they've been coming here and whether they've been abducting people.

Also, I think it's healthy to approach everything both individuals and the government tell you sceptically and crtically.

originally posted by: bonesymphony
a reply to: tanka418

I've used road maps cos I'm old and truly enjoy the wonder of gazing upon the majesty of Hubble photos. Okay who doesn't?

None of those images remain in my brain to sketch out.

Betty Hill gets to be counted as someone who had a photographic memory. It doesn't make rational sense to me.

No I don't discount what she said and don't know enough to argue with you on that point any wise. What makes you so sure she could recall so much detail when damn near everyone else cannot?

Can you draw any of the constellations? How about recognize them?
Or try this; on a piece of paper draw your city/town. Not a detailed rendering, just what is needed to recognize it on a larger map.

I thought much like you at one point, then I actually thought about the process of drawing a map of the town where I live; I found it quite easy to produce something that would be easy to recognize, especially for a computer.

That is all that Betty did..loosely, and with great artistic license she produced a workable copy of something she saw. Does she have a photographic memory? Prolly not, and the drawing she did of the original map would probably bear that out.

We are not using this Map of Betty's as an exact, precise drawing, but as a template to be applied to a collection of stars in search of a "match". After matching the individual stars are evaluated to determine IF it belongs...

In any case, Betty did produce a template that has a very precise and definitive match in the Hipparcos Astrometric data table.

ETA: Also, the amount of "detail" in Betty's drawing is irrelevant, for the most part, as long as there is enough to make the template unique.

a reply to: tanka418

Great thread Tanka, whether true or not, I appreciate you taking the time to share. I think Ectoplasm is right, Friedman and Im sure others would be interested.

Given that it is a template, there does seem to be some latitude in matching this up though. How confident are that another set of stars couldnt do the trick? For instance, the first 2 lines on the right that extend to single stars, it appears they could have a couple of matches if the lines were extended a little more.

I realize the left side of the map is more complex and Im guessing where you see the greatest evidence.

I assume this map was drawn from our planet as a reference point? How different would it look if drawn from their home world.

a reply to: tanka418

From within our files they are jump points, time points meet points. If you ever find the starting point stretch it over the western hemisphere, you will be amazed!

originally posted by: 111DPKING111

I assume this map was drawn from our planet as a reference point? How different would it look if drawn from their home world.

Actually, the Hill map is from a POV (point of view) about 200 ly from Earth...about 150ly past Zeta Reticuli and in that general direction.

The New York Times version is an Earth view though.

I have "looked at" views of the Hill map from different locations; Earth, Zeta Reticuli, but I didn't save those images...Perhaps I should put together a few alternate views...some of them were a bit interesting. And, views from ZR might help to reveal their logic in exploration...

a reply to: tanka418

After looking at the other lines on the left a little more, there are definitely other possibilities for drawing them as well, BUT I assume not all the stars on the map are not habitable, a map with just the habitable stars would be helpful.

originally posted by: 111DPKING111
a reply to: tanka418

After looking at the other lines on the left a little more, there are definitely other possibilities for drawing them as well, BUT I assume not all the stars on the map are not habitable, a map with just the habitable stars would be helpful.

Actually, Ms. Fish, and I selected only "F", "G", and "K" class stars...so, if we don't consider other factors like variability, binary star, etc. all are theoretically capable of sustaining advanced life.

More modern thought on exoplanets is saying that it is probable that all "G" class stars have an earth like planet...then I think about places like Gliese 67...A "G" class with a "moderately close" M class binary...if Gliese 67 has such a world, the weather there must be nearly unbelievably bad every 19.5 years...I can't imagine much evolution in a place like that...but, life finds a way...

a reply to: tanka418

I added some yellow lines to your map to show some possible alternatives, why do you feel the stars/lines you have chosen are the right ones?

originally posted by: 111DPKING111
a reply to: tanka418

I added some yellow lines to your map to show some possible alternatives, why do you feel the stars/lines you have chosen are the right ones?

Logic, some amount of common sense, and Hipparcos.

The stars you selected as alternates;
which stars are they?
What are their properties?
How distant are they; from Z/R, from Earth?

The stars in that one "arm" (with Tau Ceti in it) are all "distance progressive"...in that from 82 Eridani to Upsilon Andromeda / Gliese 67 are progressively further away,...in the order shown on the map. IF one was exploring the stars; isn't this the way it would be done? Closest first? Would you not show them that way on a map?

The map makes logical sense in a commercial and explorative way...

a reply to: tanka418

I see what your saying, an additional map that isolated the closer stars or a 3D model map would certainly help. And a few examples of different starting binary systems wouldnt hurt

originally posted by: 111DPKING111
a reply to: tanka418

I see what your saying, an additional map that isolated the closer stars or a 3D model map would certainly help. And a few examples of different starting binary systems wouldnt hurt

I have 2 such 3D models; one of every Hipparcos star within 33 parsec, another that contain only "F, "G", and "K" class stars within 33 parsec.

When we limit our stars to only these 3 classes there are few stars to select from (2029 stars) and dramatically fewer binaries. the existence of other binary "G" class stars with enough separation to support two star systems, will be even more rare, and more probably non-existent. (none were discovered in this research)

a reply to: tanka418

I have 2 such 3D models; one of every Hipparcos star within 33 parsec, another that contain only "F, "G", and "K" class stars within 33 parsec.

If you have them online somewhere, I wouldnt mind taking a look. I think the hardest part here is making it all easily digestible.

originally posted by: 111DPKING111
a reply to: tanka418

I have 2 such 3D models; one of every Hipparcos star within 33 parsec, another that contain only "F, "G", and "K" class stars within 33 parsec.

If you have them online somewhere, I wouldnt mind taking a look. I think the hardest part here is making it all easily digestible.

I can make them available. However, these files are 3D data, and I will need to know what format you want...i.e. what 3D engine do you have to view them with?

I use Poser Pro (pz3), but can render them as 3DS, LWO, or OBJ...these should be compatible with most 3D engines...let me know...

Congrats Tanka,

After having lurked the wonderful community of ATS for the latter half of a year, I have finally decided to create an account and contribute to the community of Denying Ignorance. For it is your pathetic and ignorant attempt to propagate and manipulate disinformation for your (unknown) agenda that has provoked me to reveal myself to this community from the shadows I frequently sought anonymity behind.

In any case, I digress. I don't want my first, nor the entirety of my contributions to the forum to be personal attacks on individuals themselves simply for expressing the opinions they believe to be true.

Healthy discussion is what contributes to progress and at the very least, Tanka, I commend you on your ability to create thought provoking discussion on the issue.

However I must refer you to a few pages from the book Dimensions: A Casebook of Alien Contact (1989) by the renowned UFOlogist, Jacques Vallee.







So two questions mentioned above that have remain unanswered were:

1: How many positions from space can we look at with the 46 star model and find as good a match as the original map?

2: Even if we find a good match or a 'best match' does that necessarily tell us anything about the original as UFOs?

And further, as I believe Jacques to point out in some of his other works (including Dimensions, Confrontations, Messengers of Deception):

WHY DRAW A 2D MAP WHERE THE REFERENCE POINT IS FROM NO KNOWN CELESTIAL OBJECT?

We as humans don't send astronauts to the moon with maps of directions to the moon let alone the rest of our solar system. Why would an advanced race send its explorers on a voyage using a 2D map to navigate the the 3D space time continuum? With all the telemetric and GPS tracking technology we have today, I would assume anyone who is a proponent of the Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis would agree that an alien race is (presumably) far more advanced than we are, why on F###### earth would they need a map to navigate the cosmos?

I'm sorry Tanka, but if the Betty Hill map isn't completely contrived, then at the very best it's an example of Psychological Warfare.

P.S. What's the difference between Extra Terrestrials and Psychological Warfare? Well, one we have absolute proof of, and the other (albeit very fascinating and worthy of scientific inquiry) is purely circumstantial.

Please continue to discuss.

Bonjour, Hola, Aloha, etc. to ATS. Thank you for listening.

a reply to: tanka418
Barney's audio is all over YouTube and is copied verbatim in "The Interrupted Journey" transcript. Betty Hills niece Kathleen Marden has possession of her hypnosis audio but has quoted Betty's words on her website which are also verbatim in the book above. So the words written are they words they spoke. And I agree with you that their words are BS. I believe the map is BS also and fabricated along with her "thousands" of UFO encounters and other claims over the years.

But anyway.... let's throw out the "irrelevant, BS" testimony by Betty and Barney and focus only on what you say is the highly relevant map:

Betty and your map broken down to only points:

Lines added to both without any distractions:

Bettys map highlights the two nickel sized points. These would be a main and important part of her map for the "aliens" and that's supported not only by their size, but the multiple "trade route" lines drawn back and forth. With your map, you only have one of these dots noted as both Zeta 1&2. I'm assuming because both are so close to each other that if you tilt the map in 3-D space to match Betty's, it throws off all of your other points.

Betty also makes a clear distinction of the middle left point being far away from any of the others. You have yours bunched into the center and same area of the other points above it. During her claimed recall of the map, the two large points and lines would logically be the easiest to remember visually. Especially a line that extends way beyond the rest.

From a visual standpoint, your updated Fish map isn't the slam-dunk strong evidence required to support the probability of alien involvement on Earth. It's an attempt, but not convincing enough and still leaves a lot of questions unanswered. You also try to divert from Betty and Barneys testimony dismissing it as an interpretation by others, which it is not. You don't want to address Betty's wild claims like a spacecraft crashing in her town LINK or the objects from UFOs she claimed to have scientifically analyzed LINK. Or the illogical marking of our sun as a multiple lined visited trade route and not a dashed exploration route as Betty described this encounter.

Also, using solid and dashed lines on a map to represent a path between cities and their purpose is historically human:

Also, before anyone want's to chime in and state that there was no way for any Terrestrial Agency (let alone one from a non-western government) to come in and intervene AKA using low frequency pulse microwaves to elicit an unconscious psychedelic experience, I refer you to following this link Here. I am certain many of you on the forum are familiar with Cheryl Walsh an the vast archive of declassified Neurological Warfare that she has made allusively public or decades.