The life after death or the eternal depresion?

originally posted by: ZeroFurrbone
So we all have our believes about what happens after death, but let us focus on 2 of them:

We dissapear in the void or the one all wish for : Our souls continue on.

So now how would you chose ? Dissapear or live on.

I don't have any beliefs about the subject. I don't know, and there is no verifiable evidence for me to form a belief so 'I don't know' is the honest answer.
I have no need to cling to a belief either way, I concentrate on this life I'm aware or perceive to be living and I'm happy with that.
I don't believe I have a soul, again due to lack of verifiable evidence. I do not believe that I do not have a soul either, I just don't know, that is a perfectly reasonable and honest position for me to hold.

So, no, we do not all have beliefs about the question.

To dissapear means you will be gone. For eternity. Imagine what will it be once you die to be like this forever and ever and ever.

To live on is... the same honestly. You will live on for eternity. Ever and ever never unable to trully dissapear. The universe will be gone all will be gone yet you will continue to exist without end.

Is all that your hypothetical set parameters for the sake of discussing the question, or are you stating that as your personal belief of the potential outcomes after death?

No matter what is it after death , it is eternal.

So what would you do ? Does that not bother you? I talked with a priest but he ended up answering nothing so i just redirect my question to all of you.

I don't care if I rot under the ground and provide nutrients to the tree that will be planted above me, or live some magical future afterlife/reincarnation/whatever.
My life now is all I care about and until anyone can show some verifiable evidence to confirm anything other than worm food, then I don't care, and I hold no belief about the subject.

originally posted by: grainofsand
until anyone can show some verifiable evidence to confirm anything other than worm food, then I don't care

Just from a programming point of view, imagine if it was confirmed. absolute undeniable proof of..lets say reincarnation. we can even determine absolutely who you were in your previous incarnation.
what a mess...can you imagine running for say, president or prime minister and it comes out you were actually hitler in your last life.
sins of the father would have nothing on reincarnation endless punishment.

Also, if you are having a rough spot in life...just suicide out and respawn. really any issues, got a broken back? dont bother learning how to cope and build on that, just suicide/respawn.
death sentences would be given for almost anything I would think..who cares, you will just come back, say, 5 felonys and bam, death for being a screwup.

society would be totally screwed up.

same with a afterlife in a confirmed heavenly existance....there would be no care or caution, who needs guardrails on bridges, or warnings before war.

if it was absolutely confirmed that there is a continued existance after life, the world would become apocalyptically bad

...

..so, if there is life after this, then perhaps thats why its a uncertain thing and may always be...because what a disaster if it was confirmed.

originally posted by: CaticusMaximus
existence and non-existence are the same thing, because the line that divides them is illusionary.

This sounds like the nonsense spiritualists go on about when discussing both time being non-linear (I can see your past and future), and also discussing free choice.
direct opposition..

it simply cant be both.

Either you exist, or you dont.
Either you can change the future, or you cant.
If there is free will, then time is linear and nobody can tell the future..only guess at likely outcomes
If there is no free will then time is non-linear and we are just living out a pre-recorded event that will never change even at the most tiny atomic scale.

I used to enjoy reading and discussing spiritual 101 type stuff like this, but in the end, many of the claims are just impossible. its not a lack of language to explain it, we have plenty of ways to discuss things, parallel dimensions, tandem lifelines, etc..its just simply impossible.

Existance..it is a yes or no binary answer...levels of existance can be discussed, sure. a tapeworm has less impactful existance than a human, or whatever may be higher on the self aware scale, but still, it exists.

a reply to: SaturnFX

Wow, it would probably change everything if ever there was a scrap of verifiable evidence to confirm the existence of an afterlife/soul reincarnation/whatever. I'd never really thought about that because of course there is no evidence, but yeah, if there were then it would certainly influence life/death/suffering situations!

Is there life after death?

Yes

Is there evidence thereof?

Yes: many died today and we're still alive.

Does the individual carry on somehow after death?

No: this is what death means.

Does one live for ever through chronically limited action and thought or procreation?

Sure, why not

Do we dream after death?

No: dreams draw on physiological functions.

The poster who wrote that reincarnation is science writes that yhvh is satan in his/her signature, because this is what this type of semantic drift will cause in thinking. Procreation/tutoring is the closest we get to reincarnation.

The post about quantum mechanics was made by someone who does not understand quantum mechanics theory: by the same logic banana cthulhu is proof of socialism.

The post about the universe being totalitarian and our not being what we think we are was written by a sad camper, and isn't true of happy campers. Mood is ultimately up to each individual: circumstance can influence it only as long as the individual allows it to.

There are many things we don't know, this isn't one of those things.

originally posted by: intergalactic fire
According to science we will be back, so not much choice, reincarnation is real so prepare yourself for another ride

According to science?

Sorry, but a book written by a psychiatrist does not qualify as science unless the claims have been tested and peer reviewed. Can you direct me to the research paper?

As an ordained minister, I personally feel that we have a choice, to come back, or not. I also believe that time, isn't linear outside of "this experience" and can allow you to decide when/if you come back. There is now WAY too much evidence to support this, and the current technology level of the human race is allowing all of us communicate at a level never seen before, which allows information to more easily travel and be passed on.

I explain it this way, as far as why we can't see what is next, because it is outside of any "sense" we have.

Let's look at a tree.

A tree grows. It grows roots into the ground. It's feeding on nutrients. It then also starts to feel "heat" and reaches for it. The tree can feel the heat and it knows when to produce leaves to feel more heat, based on the amount of heat it feels during a day that is defined to it by the amount it feels during the day, then when the heat goes away at night.

What does the tree know? One way is heat and CO2, the other is food and water.

Other than that, the tree has NO IDEA as to what it around it, other than I think that trees can find the roots of a close by tree and intertwine with it.

But, if the tree was growing next to a busy road, does it feel the vibrations of the traffic as it passes by?

Does it have any clue what those are??

The answer is no, those sensory perceptions are beyond the scope of what it can detect. Thousand of people walk by it and it has no clue that anyone or anything has, because, all of that is happening and it lacks the ability to "see" it.

Imagine what is beyond our sensory perception?

You, are a tree inside your experience.



M

a reply to: Barcs

off course.
Here is a link to his paper that was published in the 'Journal of Scientific Exploration'

'Birthmarks and Birth Defects Corresponding to Wounds on Deceased Persons'

and another that was published in the ' The Journal of Nervous and Mental Disease' and also in the ' International Journal of Comparative Sociology'

The Explanatory Value of the Idea of Reincarnation

This is why you select the religion over atheism it offers blissful afterlife guaranteed

originally posted by: intergalactic fire
a reply to: Barcs

off course.
Here is a link to his paper that was published in the 'Journal of Scientific Exploration'

'Birthmarks and Birth Defects Corresponding to Wounds on Deceased Persons'

and another that was published in the ' The Journal of Nervous and Mental Disease' and also in the ' International Journal of Comparative Sociology'

The Explanatory Value of the Idea of Reincarnation

I don't see anything in those links that proves reincarnation.

originally posted by: Barcs
I don't see anything in those links that proves reincarnation.

You are correct. There is no verifiable evidence to support any claims of souls/afterlife etc.
Any such claims are purely belief based.

a reply to: Barcs
If you read the papers and the cases he studied, which are just a few presented in these papers, in his 40 years of research, you can neither disproof reincarnation.
It is not just me saying so, there are a lot of scientists claiming by reading Stevenson's work believe it is hard to deny. There are more scientists, mostly Asian i believe, who did independent research on this but i'm not familiar with their work.
If you just think about it, how in the world could you proof or disproof reincarnation?

It is also interesting to know that almost every religion besides Christianity believes in some sort of reincarnation.
My believes are leaning more to the fact that there is indeed some sort of reincarnation but to what extend or human understanding I have yet to discover.
But i'm also a believer that consciousness, mind, soul is not just a part of brain activity, as most neuro-scientists say.

a reply to: intergalactic fire

There is no repeatedly testable or otherwise verifiable evidence to support claims of souls or an afterlife.
If you disagree of course please do feel free to share some links with ATS which do not involve youtube videos.

a reply to: ZeroFurrbone

First, so much of the comments depend on "time" continuing for you after you die... If you are no longer bound by time, "going on" or "continuing to exist" makes no sense, both infer passage of time.

Also, for all the people who need "proof"... what's proof?, something taught to us by the physical world, we learned by watching it that repeating (with time between) something under same conditions means "proof" ... in the physical world when bound by time.

Once "outside" of time and the physical world, what does physical world taught proof mean?... not much!

Just because we cannot concieve of an "existance" beyond time or the physical world doesn't mean it can't be, just that we haven't the capacity to process that possibility.

For example I always wondered when they said "god" had no begining and no end, it blew my mind, but if "god" exists outside time, "begining" and "end" are meaningless...

Maybe real "faith" must help when logic and intellect can't handle a situation.

a reply to: matadoor

I love your analogy using a tree, I believe you nailed it.

I am a true believe of life after death. For me I have had communication from deceased family members months after they died.

I have always wonder if some soles or Consciousness choose to stay in a dimension close to earth, lets say a dimension with no matter for a while before completely crossing over into the tunnel of light.

I believe some soles, or consciousness stay in that dimension for many reasons, such as some do not except they are dead, others died of a violent crime, some feel they have unfinished business, and some stay to help love one's in the grieving process, and many more reasons.

But in the end they all completely cross over. I also believe that some soles or consciousness have to have help in crossing over.

We hear of many haunted place around the world that have active spirits and some have enough energy to move objects and open doors and make objects disappear. I have experienced some of these myself.

I am also convinced in this dimension where some spirits stay that there are good and evil spirits. Perhaps some are demonic from another dimension that have found their way into the dimension of human spirits.

However you are right about humans not knowing what is truly around us since we can only see, hear, feel, smell, and taste, we ( humans ) are very limited to our surroundings, just as a tree.

Let's put it this way, I know for a fact some people can see, hear, and communicate with trapped spirits. I call this a gift, not many people have this gift and the one's that do are mostly born with it.

These people can see physical things that most humans cannot. Even many animals can sense spirits when humans cannot.

Many people try to define what death really is on an human assumption. Many believe we just die and that's it, an empty void of nothing.

However, life experiences has taught me there is a whole lot more that happens when we die and yes, there is no scientific proof and probably will never be.

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: intergalactic fire

There is no repeatedly testable or otherwise verifiable evidence to support claims of souls or an afterlife.
If you disagree of course please do feel free to share some links with ATS which do not involve youtube videos.

??disagree with what?? What are you talking about?

Where did i posted a youtube video?? I only linked the peer reviewed papers on reincarnation by Dr Ian Stevenson.
Did you read them?
If so buy one of his books, there are a lot more cases studied on reincarnation. Then make up your mind or maybe your mind is already set and so this discussion is useless.

a reply to: intergalactic fire

Oh dear, never mind.

*On-topic*
I don't give a toss either way, I hold no beliefs about such questions.

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: intergalactic fire

Oh dear, never mind.

*On-topic*
I don't give a toss either way, I hold no beliefs about such questions.

?
Then why ask the question? It wasn't me who asked a question remember?
I gave you the studies, if you are too lazy to read then it's not my problem.
If you are interested you will do your own research or are you waiting for a head title in the daily news saying reincarnation is real?

Maybe there is the possibility that instinct isn't just what we believe it to be, it's more than that. Could it be that instinct or even genetic memory are memories of past lives?

originally posted by: SaturnFX

originally posted by: grainofsand
until anyone can show some verifiable evidence to confirm anything other than worm food, then I don't care

Just from a programming point of view, imagine if it was confirmed. absolute undeniable proof of..lets say reincarnation. we can even determine absolutely who you were in your previous incarnation.
what a mess...can you imagine running for say, president or prime minister and it comes out you were actually hitler in your last life.
sins of the father would have nothing on reincarnation endless punishment.

Also, if you are having a rough spot in life...just suicide out and respawn. really any issues, got a broken back? dont bother learning how to cope and build on that, just suicide/respawn.
death sentences would be given for almost anything I would think..who cares, you will just come back, say, 5 felonys and bam, death for being a screwup.

society would be totally screwed up.

same with a afterlife in a confirmed heavenly existance....there would be no care or caution, who needs guardrails on bridges, or warnings before war.

if it was absolutely confirmed that there is a continued existance after life, the world would become apocalyptically bad

...

..so, if there is life after this, then perhaps thats why its a uncertain thing and may always be...because what a disaster if it was confirmed.

I sometimes think if this sort of knowledge made the Nazis the murderous swine they were? They were members of occult societies like the Thule Society. So with the knowledge of afterlife journeys, they killed with gay abandon. For example, they disliked Jews, but was it necessary to round them up all over Europe and kill them? Expelling them would be easier, cheaper and probably strategically sounder. It's also interesting that the Jews themselves possess certain occult knowledge, so were the Nazis also trying to monopolise that knowledge?

originally posted by: intergalactic fire
If you read the papers and the cases he studied, which are just a few presented in these papers, in his 40 years of research, you can neither disproof reincarnation.
It is not just me saying so, there are a lot of scientists claiming by reading Stevenson's work believe it is hard to deny. There are more scientists, mostly Asian i believe, who did independent research on this but i'm not familiar with their work.
If you just think about it, how in the world could you proof or disproof reincarnation?

It is also interesting to know that almost every religion besides Christianity believes in some sort of reincarnation.
My believes are leaning more to the fact that there is indeed some sort of reincarnation but to what extend or human understanding I have yet to discover.

Hi Intergalacticfire. The first link is not to a peer reviewed "scientific" publication. It is to a well known "fringe journal" that publishes on topics like telekenisis, crop circles and bigfoot (Meldrum has published some of his bigfoot nonsense there). Which doesn't mean it isn't interesting, but it's not science.

Not sure about the other journal, but it seems strange that a medical (or sociology) journal would publish the other one. It says that reincarnation could have explanatory power in certain ways, if it were true. Without giving reasons for the leap of faith required to consider it might be true (in a scientific sense) apart from anecdotes. It's difficult to see how this would appear in a peer reviewed publication, there is no science involved in it. Though the abstract does say the following (quite rightly)...

"The present paper does not present evidence suggestive of reincarnation."

But i'm also a believer that consciousness, mind, soul is not just a part of brain activity, as most neuro-scientists say.

Perhaps not. Penrose and Hameroff tried to explain this scientifically, but failed to convince, so far. Every bit of genuine science we have says that when the brain is affected, so is the consciousness. The more it is affected, the worse the effects on the consciousness. Alternate ideas say that when the brain is affected to the fullest extent, such as when it stops working altogether, that's when the consciousness is somehow regained fully (or is at it's optimum). Seems very unlikely.