The 144,000 salvageable bricks.

The biblical tradition of the 144,000 redeemed and the Heavenly Temple 12,000 stadia square, thus with an area of 144,000,000 has intrigued many, it is fair to say, and generally in trying to understand such mystery the answers are sought within the bible itself, were indeed one will find correlations with earlier accounts of the tabernacle in the wilderness and the 12 tribes arranged around such.

The numbers 12,000 and 144,000 are variously interpreted in traditional Christianity. Some, taking the numbers in Revelation to be symbolic,believe it represents all of God's people throughout history in the heavenly Church. One suggestion is that the number comes from 12, a symbol for totality, which is squared and multiplied by one thousand for more emphasis. Others insist the numbers 12,000 and 144,000 are literal numbers and representing either descendants of Jacob (also called Israel in the Bible) or others to whom God has given a superior destiny with a distinct role at the time of the end of the world

New Jerusalem

So the notion has a great deal of provenance in Hebrew tradition and indeed it can be realized that such concerns form the very basis of the tribal structure of Israel set four square, the natural follow up question then is was it original to their culture or did they develop their ideas from older traditions.

In 21:16, the angel measures the city with a golden rod or reed, and records it as 12,000 stadia by 12,000 stadia at the base, and 12,000 stadia high. A stadion is usually stated as 185 meters, or 607 feet, so the base has dimensions of about 2220 km by 2220 km, or 1380 miles by 1380 miles. In the ancient Greek system of measurement, the base of the New Jerusalem would have been equal to 144 million square stadia, 4.9 million square kilometers or 1.9 million square miles (roughly midway between the sizes of Australia and India). If rested on the Earth, its ceiling would be inside the upper boundary of the exosphere but outside the lower boundary

If they hadn't there wouldn't be any basis for this thread, but it can be demonstrated that there was earlier tradition which this derived from, that this was primarily the cult of Enki and his magic square through which he created mankind in the first place, according to Sumerian tradition, and that the Semitic equivalent of this was the cult of Ea-Yah, and his Holy Tabernacle.



The basis for the magical square of the Enki tradition is easily enough understood, it was represented by the Ikku Constellattion of the Pegasus square, the Field constellation in which he not only planted his magical tree but also sourced the mud in order to create amakind, the Ikku constellation equated with Paradise.



Of the greatest significance is that fact that the Field constellation related to specific units of area and measure in it's Earthly correspondence of the mundane field, the measure for such a field was 60 ĝiri3 × 60 ĝiri3, were a ĝiri3 or step measure was reckoned as 2 cubits, so the field measure was also 120 x 120 cubits with 14,400 area.

The basis then for calculating the redeemed was pretty much involved with how many could be contained within a field, but it gets more interesting than that, as there was also the The GAN2 system G counting system evolved into area measurements. A special unit measuring brick quantity by area was called the brick-garden,which held 720 bricks.

A nice system, we can deduce that in our idealized garden we could arrange 720 patio bricks, this also extends to the Field measure which was the equivalent of 100 gardens, so that you could lay out 72,000 patio bricks within a field.

The brick of course had extended symbolic associations in Sumerian culture, just as man was created from the mud then so was the brick, and the sacred birth brick had an important ritual function with any new born, including the new creation in the Atra Hasis myth, so it isn't difficult to realizethat in any Mesopotamian tradition relating to the redeemed within the field they could be counted as bricks, though there is no such explicit tradition, the actual number for that being 72,000, with 144,000 you'd be talking half bricks.

It's sort of unlikely they would have considered that number anyway because they had an even greater unit of area measure than the Field which was the Estate, which related to 1,800 gardens, you could lay out 12,960,000 bricks across your estate if so desired, the area for this was 360 x 720 cubits= 259,200 square cubits.

Yhe Sumerians did have the notion of the Heavenly Estate and Ninshubur was expected to run it;

Among the divine viziers Nin-subur is the earliest and most important one, and, unlike the others of her kind, she is related to her masters not as cause and effect but rather as command and execution; in other words, she owes her importance not to the natural phenomena which her masters embody, but to the metaphor of the cosmos as a state, she is the "director" of the heavenly estate and the Anuna gods

My faithful minister of the E-ana, my Ninšubur of the E-ana, (you said ) "I, the august minister of the universe, I, Ninšubur of the universe, the faithful minister of the Anuna gods.

It still seems unlikely to me though that the Sumerians would have had an interest in the concept of a redeemable number of people being equated to bricks laid out upon the ground correspondent to area, even assuming such an interest i'm sure they would have conjectured things in terms of the number of bricks that say a seven step ziggurat might contain, that would also have provided a good basis for their society building ziggurats.

The Field measure of 120 x 120 cubits would have been a good starting point for the base dimensions of a ziggurat but i think if you wanted to calculate the conjectured number of redeemed according to Sumerian tradition you'd need to be counting every brick used at all levels, the way the Hebrews went about things then a very rudimentary adaptation.

I suppose it would be an interesting exercise to conduct that if say you had a brick for every person alive today what sort of size ziggurat could you construct with that quantity, maybe hold a contest or something for the best design that corresponds to Sumerian systems of measure and proportion, call it the Tower of Babylon or some such...

Mesopotamian units of Measure

a reply to: Kantzveldt

Hmm remind's me of a certain scroll that was discovered in a certain monastery when a certain earthquake revealed the ancient concealed and bricked up entrance on certain mountain called Sinai.

The book I read in which the stones are talked about in a vision that was written down in those scroll's was called the Codex Synaticus the Secrets of Mount Sinai and was an early print edition that scared me when I read it being a religious guy, it presented an entirely different religion to the christianity I believe in but as I remember it the particular scroll was probably more Gnostic or Apocryphal in nature, it spoke for instance of only being forgiven once and how the flawed stone would be smashed and thrown into pool's of burning sulphur.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

They were the literal twelve tribes as they existed between the death/resurrection of Jesus and the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.

a reply to: LABTECH767

Yes the Ashlar tradition was based upon the earlier brick tradition, as too how far back that goes certainly extending to the on the oldest known adobe brick wall at 11,000 years, there one sees the origin of the Pegasus square numeric configuration, the extended pattern of the Heavenly estate



a reply to: troubleshooter

What about the tribes they took these systems from, were do they fit into the greater scheme of things...?

a reply to: Kantzveldt

Jacob who was later renamed 'Israel' had twelve sons: (Genesis 29:32 - 30:24 and Genesis 35:18).
They are as follows...

Reuben Simeon Levi Judah Dan Naphtali Gad Asher Isaachar Zebulan Joseph Benjamin

Later Joseph recieved a ‘double portion’...(Genesis 48:1-6 Joshua 14:1-4)
Joseph was split into Ephraim and Manasseh and Levi was dedicated to the Lord.


So the original twelve became thirteen and then twelve again because the tribe of Levi received no land. The Levites were only given certain cities and because it was the tribe of the priesthood they received the tithes of the other twelve tribes who tithed from their land. So when the tribes are listed the twelve are as follows...

Reuben Simeon Judah Dan Naphtali Gad Asher Isaachar Zebulan Ephraim Manasseh Benjamin


However, in Revelation chapter 7 the list is neither the original twelve sons or the modified list of tribes.
It is as follows...

Reuben Simeon Levi Judah Naphtali Gad Asher Isaachar Zebulan Joseph Manasseh Benjamin

You will notice that Dan and Ephraim are not on the list in Revelation 7 and Jospeh and Levi has been added back.

The tribe of Dan may have been removed due to idolatry (Judges 18:30-31)
The tribe of Ephraim does not appear excluded because of worship of Baal (Hosea 13: 1)
The tribe of Joseph is named probably to replace Ephraim and account for the double portion.
The tribe of Levi is added most likely because the Levitical priesthood had ended.


Conclusion...
Clearly the tribes listed in Revelation 7 are not a random list. The tribes named reveal a very specific composition true between the Passion/resurrection of Jesus at the time John wrote the work. The implication is that the twelve tribes are literally tribes of Israel and that they have been named and sealed. It also implies that the sixth seal of the book was opened in the first century.

144 is a Fibonacci number ... sacred geometry etc ...
12 divisions of 12 completing a spiralling cycle in geometry and the natural world both Earthly and Cosmic

Fibonacci did not invent this series of divisions (Numbers) he re discovered it's existence
As such Geometry is as ancient as civilisation and echoed in it's art and mythology

a reply to: troubleshooter

They'd always qualified their numeric system through having the 13 born of Jacob, were the 11th born Dinah was a daughter, this served to help in arrangement of tribal dispositions around the sacred square, as per this the Dead sea Temple scroll formulation, it can be seen that through recognition of Dinah as the 11th born that Benjamin becomes the 13th and Joseph the 12th

A system in which not only the objective count wasa factor but also their being born to four Mothers, so technically there were four first born.



a reply to: artistpoet

Yes the Venus cycle, see above , 3, 5, 8 etc.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

Yes the Venus cycle, see above , 3, 5, 8 etc.

I thought Venus was the 5 pointed star

You have shown a 6 sided star ... the Star of David

It is the most eloquent geometry in it's simplicity ... requiring only a given point and radius ...
The radius divided upon the circumference ... extended outward creates the Flower of Life

Where as a five pointed star requires one to mess about by creating 5 x 72 degree angles
72 Be a processional number ... 72 years for the heavens to move to one degree

Guys.. If Enkite tradition had the good geometry, their priesthood and congregations would still be here today.

Enough with the origins of the bible being neighbouring civilizations, really there's more to it.

a reply to: artistpoet

And you thought right, so why were the Hebrews dabbling with a 1.5, 2.5, 4 or 3,5,8 numeric system, as per their ark of the Covenant and tribal distribution formulae involving the numbers 1 to 13 excluding 11 to give 30 and 80 read out,



The answer is not so difficult, the five point sub-division of the ecliptic plane according to the movements of Venus relates to four and eight year periods, extending in terms of greater cycle to 40 and 80, the sub-division of the ecliptic plane into 12 as per the Zodiac is based upon Jupiter and it's 12 year orbit.

There is also the 60 year conjugation of Saturn and Jupiter, were Saturn orbits every 30 years, overall the ideal life span was conjectured as 120 years, or two such cycles and 3 of the 40 year Venus cycles, they did have the somewhat mystical notion of dropping a third though, so the emphasis was more on 80 rather than 120.

a reply to: wisvol

Not really, their states were invaded and their En priesthood taken as prize captives, by such means their ideas did find diffusion throughout the greater region, and it was generally considered that the oldest traditions were the best.

a reply to: wisvol

...really there's more to it.

Please. Do tell. Educate us.

a reply to: Klassified

The book in question is really a better source than I on this and other topics.

However, similarities between Akkadian, Pre-Muslim Persian, many other discontinued cosmologies and biblical records, human as they are, only count for inspiration *of* the bible if they actually are.
The claims that they would be being both recent and substantiated by less than bright authors leads me to conclude they are a call for attention, and not actual discovery.

With this in mind, comparative mythological studies are fascinating.

There are many threads on geometry on this good website, and some contain worthwhile information imo.

As for the origins of the bible, linguistics is clearly the clever approach, and wishful thinking does little good.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

Great post OP . Years ago I went through a 30 vid series that deals with numbers similar to the ones you have presented and though I would drop the link to the series in your thread .

This video is an Introduction to the 30 Video Special Present by the Tribulation Network on the Purposes of God. The index is covered, acknowledgements and dedication page. It highlights the significance of “biblical numerology” and places special emphasis upon John Michell’s “numerically created universe” and Sir Isaac Newton’s interests in the prophetic and the inter-relationship he saw within the books of Daniel and the Revelation. It lays stress upon the contestation between the occult and Gnosticism’s role in the quest for the measurements of paradise and how the measurement of the “Sacred Cubits” 25.20” played a major role during the revival of the British inch, mile and other “lines of measurement” based upon the Sacred Cubit. Finally, the Magan David and its intriguing mix of angles which total to 2520° - the measurement of the Sacred Cubit.

www.the-tribulation-network.com... Most of this stuff goes over my head but its hard not to notices these numbers being significant because of where and how they show up .

a reply to: Kantzveldt

it's more simple than the confounded explanations we try to present...

the 12 thousand -> these are 1,000 'cells' composed of 12 members each

all together then (with 12 tribes) there will be 12,000 fighting/evangelizing 'cells'...each 'cell' comprised of 12 persons for a total of 144,000 who are 'sealed' ---- which means that for each person in a particular 'cell' who dies as a result of the evil-forces... will have a re-placement in an immediate presence of the fallen 'cell' member

so the AC/FP evil Empire can systematically kill/eliminate all the original 144,000 army fighting Lucifer--- their ranks will never be less than the 144,000 sealed at the same time as the two witnesses are commissioned to end-time ministry


just presenting (some say) hidden knowledge... just read & interpret 'the word' in prophecy... in fullness....

a reply to: Kantzveldt

Possibly it is a reference to the divine body we are to inhabit next a biological map of the true Ark of the covenant... the fully developed new divine brain

a reply to: St Udio

My interest is that you might see the organizational basis for the first built city states, were the first unit is the 720 of the basic garden, or village neighbourhood, a 100 of these the 72,000 (120 x 120 area) of the field, that may have constituted an idealized population for a city state, and hence it's later usage with regards to the idealized populace of a Heavenly city

a reply to: prevenge

Possibly, or insight into the organizational structure of the Borg...

a reply to: Kantzveldt

Oh, Technocrats & the Technocrati hierarchy (not the contemporary cyber business)... employing the PUD system (planned urban development) model as the basic foundation principal....
... another poster replied about 'Borg' form of statism-fascism

see: -> search.yahoo.com...;_ylc=X3o'___'FiaHBhMnJmBF9TAzIwMjM1MzgwNzUEaXRjAzEEc2VjA3NyY2hfcWEEc2xrA3NyY2hhc3Q-?p=statism+define&fr=yfp-t-553-s&fp= 1&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8
stat·ism
/ˈstādˌizəm/

noun

1.
a political system in which the state has substantial centralized control over social and economic affairs:

"the rise of authoritarian statism"


thanks ...but the mystical &/or meta-physical constructs are (to me) just too forced...instead of being a natural flow of reality
but in a Technocratic society... you are absolutely right-on


I have to state... the ATS site just froze my PC... or the server 'locked' my PC for more than 1 minute at the immediate posting of this reply...

I might just do the Windows 10 free upgrade that is being foisted on all us older Win 7 & 8 OS users

a reply to: troubleshooter

You wrote QUOTE "They were the literal twelve tribes as they existed between the death/resurrection of Jesus and the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70" UNQUOTE

To which exact Tribes are you referring?

As you already may know, the lists of the 12 Tribes in the Old & New Testaments don't seem to line up very well. Check out this discussion - you'll notice Manasseh is mentioned in Revelation's list, but not the Tribe of Dan - and then there is the list of 11 tribelets in the Song of Deborah in the Book of Judges

www.abovetopsecret.com...

a reply to: St Udio

That sort of sounds along the right lines, but the greater concern is with the numerics of Enki and his magic square, the Abzu shrine, were at the most fundamental levels of creation you're talking about six quarks and six Leptons and a rogue particle named Dinah.



I think the Hebrews had a pretty good sampling of the core numeric traditions associated with this and constructed their tribal narrative upon that framework.



This site since the 'improvements' is functioning poorly and looking awful, i've zoomed in the page to avoid seeing peripheral crap.

originally posted by: St Udio
I might just do the Windows 10 free upgrade that is being foisted on all us older Win 7 & 8 OS users

I seriously recommend a really good system backup from something like novastor or acronis first. Just in case you find a reason to go back and the 'unwind' feature doesn't work.