No Christian is Involved in Politics

a reply to: JarofRice

so you're calling me Satan...

the rest of that post was just gibberish after that...

what is logical about love?

WHAT?

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

I respect your understanding.

But please remember this scripture Believerpriest:

(Acts 10:34, 35) . . .“Now I truly understand that God is not partial, 35 but in every nation the man who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.

God is not partial. He does not take sides.

And he can control all things to the advantage of his servants. They do NOT need to fight for themselves.

You see?

Satan rules the world, and all political powers are in Satan's control. If you fight for a political power on earth, you are aligning yourself with Satan, not God.

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: JarofRice

so you're calling me Satan...

the rest of that post was just gibberish after that...

what is logical about love?

WHAT?

No, I'm not calling you Satan.

But your attitude is that of Satan.

Is it not? you first tried to rebuke Paul in scripture, and then Jesus himself!

Who would do that?

And then you try to refute that LOVE is logical.

So if Jesus is quoted or any other inspired word of God you would reject it.

So where do you think you stand?

You reject God's word.

I know that, knowing you a few minutes.

Everyone else must know that from you too.

It does not contradict the OP. It only confirms it.

And you are left without eyes to see and ears to hear.

a reply to: JarofRice

I get what you're saying, but Jesus clearly did tell His disciples to arm themselves, and Moses and Joshua did fight some very bloody battles.

It comes down to discernment. When is it right to fight? When do we lay down our lives?

If its defense of family, an innocent person being victimized or self, then you need to fight. If its resisting the law, then you need to comply. Legal and political violence is never justified, but self defense and national defense is justifiable.




Its a test of spiritual integrity and faith, knowing when to stand up or stand down.

a reply to: JarofRice

Don't forget George Washington AKA the 'Bullet Proof President'...

George Washington His habit was to spend an hour on his knees in prayer every morning at 5am, kneeling before a chair with his open bible on it and a candle to give it light. He spent another hour every night in prayer, retiring at 9 pm to do so, in the same fashion. He as described as a very thankful man.

greentreecommunity.net...

He was most certainly a true Christian, in fact, divine intervention was a daily part of his life.

At one point, several Indians were shooting at him at point blank range and officers were dying all around him.

Washington inexplicably survived a hailstorm of bullets for 2 hours and had two horses shot out from under him, afterwards he found four bullet holes in his coat.

He was untouched by bullets or arrows while every other mounted officer had died.

The story of God’s divine protection could be found in virtually all school textbooks up until 1934.

The Bullet Proof George Washington
www.capturedmiracles.org...

The Bullet Proof President
www.garymcleod.org...

A Native American Homage
www.independentamericanparty.org...

Did God Protect George Washington?
flatoutunconstitutional.com...

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: JarofRice

I get what you're saying, but Jesus clearly did tell His disciples to arm themselves, and Moses and Joshua did fight some very bloody battles.

It comes down to discernment. When is it right to fight? When do we lay down our lives?

If its self defense, then you need to fight. If its resisting the law, then you need to comply. Legal and political violence is never justified, but self defense and national defense is justifiable.

You are very logical, and I appreciate the response. Really. It is from someone that thinks.

You are a logical person, I want you to think of something. The nation of Israel was God's chosen people, and God did use it on earth to combat and fight nations. He used Joshua to vanquish people. He did use King David. And others. He used Israel as his people on earth, and thus could fight through them, people on earth.

But when Jesus came to earth, the literal nation of Israel was abandoned. And the Christian congregation was formed, by Christ, God's son. The reason Israel existed to begin with.

And the natural nation of Israel was done away with, because the majority of Jews rejected the Messiah. And God began to accept people OF ALL NATIONS into his anointed congregation.

Do you see how things changed?

From one nation to a congregation of people from all nations? You see the Christian congregation was never given permission by Jesus to kill. Jesus said that all will know his disciples by this fact: that they would have love among each other. - John 13:35.

I say this with all due respect to you. And I do like you. And appreciate your responses and your thinking. It shows you do think. I just want you to be able to understand further.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

If its self defense, then you need to fight. If its resisting the law, then you need to comply.

What type of law? Any law? Some "laws" seem to contradict the Law in immoral and unjust ways: please elaborate. If you're told by force of law to crucify the innocent, do you need to comply?
What if a local new law says religious gathering is illegal (USSR for instance)?
Or this?

a reply to: JarofRice

No, I'm not calling you Satan.

Except you did...

But your attitude is that of Satan.

Is it not?

No... as you will see..

you first tried to rebuke Paul in scripture, and then Jesus himself!

no..

i pointed out an issue with Paul... according to Jesus...

And said nothing that goes against Jesus... let alone "rebuking" him lol...

do you happen to recall anything about "bearing false witness"?

And then you try to refute that LOVE is logical.

It isn't... even according to Jesus...

thats what makes it so amazing actually...

So if Jesus is quoted or any other inspired word of God you would reject it.

So where do you think you stand?

You reject God's word.

Nah... Just yours...

And mostly all preachers of said religion...

I know that, knowing you a few minutes.

Judge not, that ye be not judged.

For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

And you are left without eyes to see and ears to hear.

Perhaps ye might think about that for a bit...

a reply to: Akragon

You aren't in your full senses dear person.

Jesus clearly showed us that love was the fulfillment of the law:

(Matthew 5:43-45) . . .You heard that it was said: ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise on both the wicked and the good and makes it rain on both the righteous and the unrighteous.

(Matthew 22:36-40) . . .Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 He said to him: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this: ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.”

God's word brings all things into subjection to him. But we should do it with love. So I do not share these scriptures with you to show you the surpassing value of love by anything but love.

a reply to: JarofRice

I respect your logic and patience too.

But, Israel and the Church are grafted together into one Olive Tree. Spiritually speaking, Israel and Church are all the Seed of Abraham. In fact, the Church is a sort of extension of Israel, but as ambassadors rather than a nation. If God worked through Israel to do His will, then He will do the same for the Church. The difference is that the Church is not a national entity, therefore has no right to wage war as an national entity, but ambassadors do have the right to defend themselves when the time is right. Hence Luke 22:36.

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: JarofRice

I respect your logic and patience too.

But, Israel and the Church are grafted together into one Olive Tree. Spiritually speaking, Israel and Church are all the Seed of Abraham. In fact, the Church is a sort of extension of Israel, but as ambassadors rather than a nation. If God worked through Israel to do His will, then He will do the same for the Church. The difference is that the Church is not a national entity, therefore has no right to wage war as an national entity, but ambassadors do have the right to defend themselves when the time is right. Hence Luke 22:36.

I love this logic.

You see ambassadors do NOT fight for anyone BUT the government they represent. God's representatives, his AMBASSADORS to the earth are subjects, not to any earthly government, and therefore not subject to any earthly government. They are ambassadors of God's government in heaven. And they are not required to fight for any earthly government. For what ambassador goes to another nation and then fights for them?

originally posted by: wisvol
a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

If its self defense, then you need to fight. If its resisting the law, then you need to comply.

What type of law? Any law? Some "laws" seem to contradict the Law in immoral and unjust ways: please elaborate. If you're told by force of law to crucify the innocent, do you need to comply?
What if a local new law says religious gathering is illegal (USSR for instance)?
Or this?

Well Christians are told to obey all laws up to the point that the law would cause us to sin (like idolatry), at which point we are to resist no matter the penalty.

Just look at the story of Daniel, when he refused to worship the king's statue.


If religious gathering becomes illegal, then you gather in secret. We are commanded to keep our traditions.

a reply to: JarofRice

You are correct, but an ambassador must survive in order to represent his nation in a foreign land. So if an ambassador is walking around, and a street criminal attacks him, then it is in his King's interest that he defend himself to live another day in the ministry. Again, hence Luke 22:36.

But if the authorities of that foreign land decide to apprehend the ambassador, then he is to comply as not to misrepresent his own King.

a reply to: JarofRice

I get what you're trying to say, but I disagree with the delivery and the main point. How do you expect the 2 billion plus Christians around the world to manage the rules and resources around them? Politics simply deal with the rules among humans, making it neither inherently good nor bad.

Even if every Christian strictly followed the Bible, how would they determine how to build infrastructure, harvest and distribute food and other goods, or enforce the rules and punishments in the Bible? Whatever answer you can give to that question is still a part of "politics", because anything dealing with community-wide rules and the enforcement of those rules would still be called "politics".

Any community with an acknowledged leader or leaders would also have "politics" by default, since politics would deal with the leaders' decisions and enforcement of those decisions.

What about John the Baptist

And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages. Luke 3:14

A soldier is by definition one who takes up arms, right? I think Christ's warning, about those who take up a sword dying by the sword, is true (obviously) but why would dying by the sword prevent one from being a Christian?

We should walk after the spirit in meekness and love but what must we do?

Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, and brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. Acts 16: 29-31

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Thank you for expanding on your thought.

I do wonder if all it takes for sin to rule is for good men and women to stay idle (idleatry?) while it is carried out:

What if a hypothetical nation were to mistreat many innocents, would helping those innocents not be the Christian thing to do even if it is both against local law and said law does not *directly* cause one to sin?

Unless you consider it a sin to stay idle in the face of evil? I would understand that as well.

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: JarofRice

You are correct, but an ambassador must survive in order to represent his nation in a foreign land. So if an ambassador is walking around, and a street criminal attacks him, then it is in his King's interest that he defend himself to live another day in the ministry. Again, hence Luke 22:36.

But if the authorities of that foreign land decide to apprehend the ambassador, then he is to comply as not to misrepresent his own King.

Agreed.

But imagine this. The ambassador from God's government has angels at his side. And what you may imagine for ordinary people to be a pearl for him it is not. For they are able to remove all obstacles before him, before he even knew they existed.

That happens on a daily basis in real life for God's ambassadors to the earth, and even his emissaries. Do not imagine for one moment that walking into his organisation is like walking into anything earthly. And if you doubt it, and challenge him, it will be quickly shown you that is not so.

originally posted by: wisvol
a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Thank you for expanding on your thought.

I do wonder if all it takes for sin to rule is for good men and women to stay idle (idleatry?) while it is carried out:

What if a hypothetical nation were to mistreat many innocents, would helping those innocents not be the Christian thing to do even if it is both against local law and said law does not *directly* cause one to sin?

Unless you consider it a sin to stay idle in the face of evil? I would understand that as well.

Well, its a sin to stand by and watch an innocent be murdered, so you step in and do what is in your power (but not with politics). But sin already rules this world, that is why Christians are told not to love the world. So we really can't be everywhere at the same time to stop evil from happening.

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
a reply to: JarofRice

I get what you're trying to say, but I disagree with the delivery and the main point. How do you expect the 2 billion plus Christians around the world to manage the rules and resources around them? Politics simply deal with the rules among humans, making it neither inherently good nor bad.

Even if every Christian strictly followed the Bible, how would they determine how to build infrastructure, harvest and distribute food and other goods, or enforce the rules and punishments in the Bible? Whatever answer you can give to that question is still a part of "politics", because anything dealing with community-wide rules and the enforcement of those rules would still be called "politics".

Any community with an acknowledged leader or leaders would also have "politics" by default, since politics would deal with the leaders' decisions and enforcement of those decisions.

Good and reasoning questions.

Scripture states:

(Romans 13:1, 2) 13 Let every person be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. 2 Therefore, whoever opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will bring judgment against themselves.

So God has allowed humans to rule themselves. So all of what you ask for, while tiny in comparison to what God could provide, God did say we need to follow. So a Christian must subject themselves to the the governments they are in, as much as the governments do NOT interfere with true worship of Jehovah God.

For example, trying to force them to murder each other in war.

And also Jesus himself said:

(Matthew 22:21) . . .“Pay back, therefore, Caesar’s things to Caesar, but God’s things to God.”

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

We are not an extension of Israel we are spiritual Israel, the child of promise. We are a nation.

Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Matthew 21:43

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; 1 Peter 2:9