Noah's drunken curse of Canaan

Genesis 9:20-27 Noah and his sons

20 Noah, a man of the soil, was the first to plant a vineyard.21 He drank some of the wine and became drunk, and lay uncovered in his tent.22 Ans Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brothers outside.23 Then Shem Japheth took a garment, laid it on both their shoulders, and walked backward and covered the nakedness of their father; their faces were turned away, and they did not see their father's nakedness.24 When Noah awoke from his wine and knew what his youngest son had done to him,25 he said,
"Cursed be Canaan;
Lowest of slaves shall he be to his brothers."
26He also said,
Blessed by the Lord my God be Shem;
and let Canaan be his slave.
27 May God make space for Japheth,
and let him live in the tents of Shem;
and let Canaan be his slave."

Quick summary, Noah is the first post-deluvian person to get drunk and pass out naked. His son Ham accidentally sees him naked and does what any son would do and tells his brothers who cover him up without seeing his nakedness.

Noah wakes up and is mad at Ham either for telling his brothers or for seeing him naked or both, but he is mad enough to literally put a curse/hex/spell in the name of the Lord his God on Ham's son Canaan and vindictiveley bless Shem (Shem is somewhat of a divinity in Judaism as Melchizedek) and in a lesser fashion Japheth and make Canaan, who is completely innocent of any wrongdoing, slave to both brothers generationally.

Joshua and his army would go on to Slaughter every living inhabitant Human and animal in all of the section of Canaan that would become Israel. So righteous Noah's not so righteous curse was apparently taken to the utmost extreme by this Lord fellow who I am sure even Noah himself would be horrified to discover how his curse was carried out. He couldn't have envisioned this happening and he was mad at the time. I'm sure once he calmed down he came to his senses. But, that is how curses work, they work but never without harsh repercussions to the soul of the curser. When you're dealing with DEMONS! But this is the all-wise all-knowing all-powerful Lord. Why is he engaging in territorial conquests in a violent beyond imagination, cruel and sadistic fashion like some kind of Crusader on Steroids. The all wise Lord can't find a diplomatic solution? Seriously, we hold people in positions of power to a higher standard for a logical reason. They have a responsibility. We would never worship a genocidal dictator because he is evil. Why would you worship a Lord who kills babies? If you do worship this baby killer I just have one question, do you also like the work of Pol Pot, who emulated the Lord with genocide? Or how about Josef Mengele, who oversaw cruel expirements with people who wanted to exterminate entire races because they were the master race and the other races were "inferior" and were sub-human. Master race, Gods chosen people, what is the difference between the two? Canaans people had the Nephilim gene through Hams wife which is the reason that they were exterminated, genetically inferior.

a reply to: SerapisChrist

what is the difference between the two?

one has a bible... and a religion based on said book

a reply to: SerapisChrist

Yet another example why I have been considering myself a Gnostic as of late, rather than just trying to make sense out of why the Old Teste God was such a sick, twisted psychopath.

a reply to: SerapisChrist

Does this mean that the sassanid ID is banned and you are straight back in a new guise?

Disregarding your individual abuse of ATS T's & C's:

Noah was in his tent where Ham saw him naked. This probably suggests that Ham didn't respect the boundaries of Noah's residence and was where he should not have been without Noah's permission. One would assume that being naked and asleep in one's own residence is not a mortal sin.

Also, the word 'ervah', translated as 'naked' also translates to 'pudenda' and also to 'undefended' and carries a feminine, rather than masculine sense, and in that case it says specifically that Ham saw or maybe even interfered with his fathers (or mother's) genitals. The inference I got is that Ham intentionally went into Noah's bedroom and did something 'unmentionable' (beyond just looking) while his dad was passed out.

If a person came up to you in the street and told you that god was speaking to them, you might say that they were nuts.
So who is to say that all the people in the bible who heard god say; "you see those people in that piece of desert?"
- yes god-
"Kill them and their cows"

Pretty hot in the desert, makes people go nuts.


Just sayin

I wouldn't usually take part in this type of discussion, but in case you're being serious:

"God is a demon" is from the same drawer as "war is peace", "freedom is slavery", "sodomy is gay" or "bombing cities is not terrorism" type thinking. Don't take it from me though, just ask Dr Malmsteen.

The passage translated here as "discovered his nakedness" is used in the same form, in the same translation, as a euphemism for serious moral deviance, which Noah had hoped to escape with his family.
Think Lot's daughters for instance.
To see his own son partaking in "nakedness uncovering" would have been quite a disappointment I'm sure.

We would never worship a genocidal dictator because he is evil.

Cool, obviously "we" aren't like those USSR people and their framed picture of Stalin in every room, who by law had to replace the icons and other religious signs of worship. For instance

Shem is somewhat of a divinity in Judaism as Melchizedek

No, Judaism makes it a point that god is one, and isn't a man but the origin of man.

Master race, Gods chosen people, what is the difference between the two?

The former is a notion according to which genetics determine merit, and the latter is a name given by some to a group of slaves who claim to have witnessed supernatural presence in the Sinai a long time ago. Consider it a mass hallucination if you must, or even a lie to their own children for the purpose of having to obey ten commandments, it doesn't in any case have the supremacist undertone a "master race" has.

No reasonable bible translation says the hebrews even imagined conquering the world like the master race guys set out to do. In fact our geographic ambition is quite limited in scope and our respect for the religions (or lack thereof) of others is clearly demonstrated throughout history by lack of conquest beyond our borders, lack of proselytism, & c.
In fact for centuries even the one country wasn't seen as necessary until the master race guys made it mandatory for us to maintain an army or be wiped out.

Noah's curse isn't about a master race, it's about Ham's behaviour determining the fate of his bloodline, which knowing the curse he could have chosen not to extend so much, but who believes a guy who has demonstrated prescience of the flood? Not Canaan apparently

You're angry, don't be angry at my people or our sacred texts, be angry at what makes you angry, and then solve your anger so it doesn't burn your insides.
It may be more difficult but it's the right thing to do.

Or how about Josef Mengele, who oversaw cruel expirements with people who wanted to exterminate entire races because they were the master race and the other races were "inferior" and were sub-human.

A "god is the devil" kind of guy himself who instead of saying his people were "chosen by god to receive the law" said all other peoples were inferior to his, a vastly different approach that yielded vastly different results.

Good luck, gnostic dude who thinks yhvh isn't allah, an opinion in clear contrast with Gabriel's records.

a reply to: dogstar23

the Old Teste God was such a sick, twisted psychopath.

According to the OP and his school of thought surely.

According to the book said school criticises, not so much actually. People just don't mean the same whether or not you're able to create worlds. Playing Ages of empires or Chess doesn't make one a murderer.

a reply to: Akragon

Have you not heard of Mein Kampf? Are you for real? Hitler was the German Messiah and Himmler was obsessed with ancient Germanic myths. The whole SS was indoctrinated into this cult with gods like Wotan. They had a whole new religion based off the ancient Germanic myths and the Aryan myth.

Mein Kampf WAS the bible of Nazi Germany, I can't believe you even said that have you forgotten history?

a reply to: wisvol
What's your beef? Did I make up anything? I made a perfectly valid observation off of the Bible. You must worship this Lord fellow pretty hard or you wouldn't be ranting. Was it the Pol Pot comparison, because, really that's an insult to Pol Pot, the Lord has a higher body count.

a reply to: SerapisChrist

Of course i know of their fav book...

Its still can't be compared to the bible... Theres likely more copies of the bible then there are people on earth

And the destruction that has come from said book, both phyisically, emotionally, and spiritually is beyond compare

I heard from a couple of people that Canaan had anal intercourse with Noah and that is why he was cursed. Now, I don't support this theory or even know where this idea came from, but that is what I was told. I certainly never looked into this one and really don't know if I should even take that theory seriously enough to do some fact checking. Maybe I should check this one out now.

I also heard that Canaan was dark skinned and this is where the idea that the Bible supported black slavery. Not sure about that one either.

a reply to: dogstar23
Glad to hear it. Gnostic really is about knowledge. Sure it has a mythology to follow, based off Zoroastrianism which is also the source of the Kabbalah, but it doesn't worship the "god" of the old testament. You should read the Gnostics and their remains online at sacredtexts and the Nag Hammadi scriptures and you will have a good knowledge of the history of Gnosticism which has so many elements from so many faiths it's amazing.

originally posted by: SerapisChrist
a reply to: Akragon

Have you not heard of Mein Kampf? Are you for real? Hitler was the German Messiah and Himmler was obsessed with ancient Germanic myths. The whole SS was indoctrinated into this cult with gods like Wotan. They had a whole new religion based off the ancient Germanic myths and the Aryan myth.

Mein Kampf WAS the bible of Nazi Germany, I can't believe you even said that have you forgotten history?

I have read a couple of translations of Mein Kampf and Hitler made no claim to divinity that I recall. He even called upon Christians to see what he saw as "the Jewish peril" and help installing his new political order.

The Bible was the Bible of Germany, most probably a Lutheran one.

a reply to: Akragon
Im not comparing it to THE bible I am saying it was THEIR bible and Hitlerwas their Messiah. Both true. Aryan Master Race was a religion. If believing your people are the master race isn't religious I don't know what is, especially when combined with Norse mythology that Himmler was introducing as the new religion.

So I don't agree with your line of thinking that Chosen ones is different than Master Race because Mein Kampf was its bible and they had a religion based off hatred of the people of the Bible combined with old Norse mythology and racism.

Chosen ones=Master race

Same damn thing just different words.

a reply to: chr0naut
Yeah and did I say he made a claim to divinity? I did not.

Your idea of a Messiah is not what it means. A Messiah like in Judaism was a human who would restore glory to his people. There was no expectations of divinity on behalf of the Jews and to this day still isn't.

So I say Messiah and you think God, which is because you're a Christian. Annointed one doesn't mean God.

Your message is irrelevant, your putting words in my mouth.

I didn't write the bible Christians. I didn't tell you that a baby killer was acceptable for worship. You can't deny what is in the bible so you get mad at me for being completely honest in comparing the Lord of the Bible to a bloodthirsty maniac. But that is what the bible tells us, maybe instead of being mad at me for being honest about the Lord and pointing out how demented he is you should take a look in the mirror and say " I worship a god who kills babies and commits acts of genocide" and see how it sounds out loud. Maybe you should think about what you're worshipping: Evil. And what is so hypocritical is you think that Jesus is the same thing when he is nothing like the Lord. So forgive me if I don't take your claims of "Christian" seriously because of that.

a reply to: SerapisChrist

Did I make up anything?

I hope so because if not, there may be another school of you somewhere. Someone did make this up though, and it ain't the author of the book you refer to.

Meh

originally posted by: wisvol
a reply to: SerapisChrist

Did I make up anything?

I hope so because if not, there may be another school of you somewhere. Someone did make this up though, and it ain't the author of the book you refer to.

Meh

I didn't make up the Bible.

And what is with you hoping that I made this up? Your comment was ignorant because it suggests that the information I provided is untrue. As a matter of principle I must require that you produce anything untrue in this thread from me.

a reply to: SerapisChrist

I didn't make up the Bible.

You sure didn't.

I was referring to your extrapolations, some of which are incorrect.

God being evil or yhvh not being el elyon is a prime example.

a reply to: SerapisChrist

As a matter of principle I must require that you produce anything untrue in this thread from me.

Chosen ones=Master race Same damn thing just different words.