How is Bob Lazar Not a Respected Figure?

a reply to: hellobruce

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

They certainly erased some of our President's past, did they not?

Happens all the time.

originally posted by: Crisis
I don't think it's wise to assume something about someone that you have no information on. You're assuming I have incorrect info based on your own research, which is fine I guess. The case of Bob Lazar isn't as black-or-white as many make it to be; you're convinced it is, and I have reason to believe otherwise, that's all I'm saying. At this point it's almost similar to an atheist trying to convince a theist, and vice-versa. That's how it usually goes around here though, haha

Tell me what makes you think he might be telling the truth.

From your very obscure POV 3danimator, it would essentially seem as if you aren't open to the thought of intelligent life existing elsewhere. You also believe that the knowledge we are currently allowed to have access to is the absolute limit to it. That's extremely close minded if you ask me.

Essentially, if all was perfect we shouldn't exist any at all. There should be equal antimatter as there is matter and we should all comprehend what happens when you add antimatter and matter. There are obviously MANY things we are yet to even begin to unfold. Your limited way of thought and aggressive comments make you seem very ignorant.

It's rather funny that people rather get to the assumption that he's a liar a fraud and all these things, however not one person has stopped to say hey. Sure maybe he was wrong in how the device operated, when you try to reverse engineer you aren't always right about how it works. The mere fact you've never encountered such technology simply suggests you will be testing your theory of how it works. That's what it immediately presents to you. However upon further inspection and deeper analysis with better technology and a greater understanding of science we may further expand on his discoveries to fill in the gap. But all you "I went to university, I read books" scientist seem to be just programmed and completely incapable of understanding what a new study would take to really understand fully how it works. It'd be almost as hard as understanding the origins of life.

Also for those who've said element 115 doesn't exhibit the properties claimed, show me where that has been tested for my own educational purposes I'd like to see the quantity and the duration of the tests thanks.

That's a very non-progressive mindset, you don't prove something wrong, fake and a lie because you can't find someones certifications. But I believe I've spoken to you before and it's near trying to speak with a brick wall.

a reply to: SuspiciousTom

It's rather funny that people rather get to the assumption that he's a liar a fraud and all these things, however not one person has stopped to say hey.

Perhaps he is telling the truth about some things, who knows, but its an absolute fact that he has lied about his qualifications. His story really is outrageous, even if he is a pretty clever guy, he just doesnt have the resume to be called in to work on reverse engineering the best technology on the planet.

Someone posted this link in another thread, its worth reading.
From a pro UFO source, Michael Schratt reviews the evidence for Bob Lazar's claims
Link

originally posted by: SuspiciousTom
From your very obscure POV 3danimator, it would essentially seem as if you aren't open to the thought of intelligent life existing elsewhere. You also believe that the knowledge we are currently allowed to have access to is the absolute limit to it. That's extremely close minded if you ask me.

Essentially, if all was perfect we shouldn't exist any at all. There should be equal antimatter as there is matter and we should all comprehend what happens when you add antimatter and matter. There are obviously MANY things we are yet to even begin to unfold. Your limited way of thought and aggressive comments make you seem very ignorant.

It's rather funny that people rather get to the assumption that he's a liar a fraud and all these things, however not one person has stopped to say hey. Sure maybe he was wrong in how the device operated, when you try to reverse engineer you aren't always right about how it works. The mere fact you've never encountered such technology simply suggests you will be testing your theory of how it works. That's what it immediately presents to you. However upon further inspection and deeper analysis with better technology and a greater understanding of science we may further expand on his discoveries to fill in the gap. But all you "I went to university, I read books" scientist seem to be just programmed and completely incapable of understanding what a new study would take to really understand fully how it works. It'd be almost as hard as understanding the origins of life.

Also for those who've said element 115 doesn't exhibit the properties claimed, show me where that has been tested for my own educational purposes I'd like to see the quantity and the duration of the tests thanks.

That's a very non-progressive mindset, you don't prove something wrong, fake and a lie because you can't find someones certifications. But I believe I've spoken to you before and it's near trying to speak with a brick wall.

First of all..I do believe in life elsewhere. Very much so. But i don't believe they have ever or are visiting us.

As for Lazar. ..If you want to believe that we know nothing of how the universe works and anything is possible..be my guest.

But i and others know our theory of quantum mechanics is correct. Because we use it to build the computer you guys post your threads on.

We have incredibly intricate knowledge of all the elements. Have you ever heard of the various various phases of Plutonium or the magnetic properties of Holmium? Do you know about heat echoes in the superfluid that is liquid helium. Do you know how semiconductors work?

All these things and millions more as well as the dedication to TRUTH from millions of scientists have built everything, good and bad, that we have today.

I'm do sick oh you guys who are so incredibly clueless about scientific method saying how we are slaves to science and our minds are not open. Our minds are far more open than any of you. That's why scientists are unlocking the secrets to how things Actually work while all you guys do is post on forums and defend liars.

You want to believe in magical unicorns and properties of elements that don't exist? No skin off my nose but don't come and insinuate that my mind is closed to potential scientific phenomena. Every scientist alive would LOVE for 115 to exhibit the incredible properties that Lazar claimed. How incredible would that be. But it doesn't and never will. We know why it won't. ..you don't, which is why you still believe. I'm not blaming for you not knowing the science...but don't belittle the people who do.

And as for why it hasn't been tested for what he claimed? Same reason cheese hasn't been tested to see if it can produce neutrinos when subjected to red light. Makes no sense and is a waste of valuable time.

It's one thing having an open mind, it's another being a sucker.

And one last question. Would you trust your ocal shop keeper to perform surgery on your brain? Of course not. Because they had to go and study and learn all about it. So why on EARTH would you not except the same thing from physicists? It's just as intricate and hard and requires just as much dedication. Physics is f*ckin hard. You can't just come out with theories, you have to be able to back it up with either maths or data. Something which a lot of ATS members seem to be oblivious about. You included.

Well, to address your post sir. That's great that you believe and being skeptic about them coming here is also just as great, I can say I also fall in this group. Doesn't mean I'll ever rule out that they have not, there has been 2million years of our species and I've experienced but just 23, and we have recorded data for about ~5000 years.

No, I'm very far from a scientist. I'm more of a programmer a logical mind set, and thanks it's great that you develop the technology which fuels my passion cheers to you, looking forward to photonic processors. Scientists are well respected in my book for the work they do, definitely.

But help me understand here, if one scientist should come up with babble, does that mean it should be instantly discarded? Have you never in your life experienced something impossible and just observed and acknowledge the fact it may just be beyond your understanding?

A slave to science? Hmm, probably you've stated that wrong. My point is don't be fixated on one thing instantly discarding another because it sounds impossible. As a scientist I'm pretty sure you should be able to agree that, science is completely bottlenecked by our own developed limits(money). Without money being an active limitation, just for a second think of how much could be achieved. We would have advanced significantly further because of the lack of constraint.

It's rather odd a man of science such as yourself would find it so hard to understand my posts. You speak as if you're so much greater than anyone here to be honest, that little paragraph there questioning my knowledge. I currently know nothing you asked and probably within 3 ~ 6 hours I could research it all and get back here to you with that information. But it would all be from others not from my own tests. And keep in mind I'd have absolutely no certificate. Are you saying you would then thrash my content?

Magical unicorns? :/

Cheese? Sir that's far out of context. But a bit for you, cheese is made of milk, which contains calcium, guess how element 115 is synthesized .

If my local shopkeeper has a talent I'd most likely trust him in a situation where there's an emergency. I have no degree, and I'm a programmer as stated, pretty impossible right? I will continue to "insinuate" that your mind is closed brother. You should calm your arrogance a bit.

A quick google on the properties of element 115

A highly radioactive metal, of which only a few atoms have ever been made.
Melting Point: Unknown.
Natural abundance: Unknown

Source: www.rsc.org...
We must know so much about this element and why it's completely impossible for Bob's claims to be right in any possible way.

Do you even have a talent? Because if you do then you'd be open minded to the idea of people being capable to do things without a piece of paper suggesting you successfully went through a schooling system.

But hey as you've stated "If you want to believe" you are "open minded" who am I to tell you otherwise. Have a good one bud.

Also, as you've claimed you know why it's impossible for anything he's claimed about element 115 to be true, please do inform me and cure my ignorace I've asked quite a few times within this thread. It'd certainly help me grow as an individual thank you.

a reply to: SuspiciousTom

First of all. I appreciate your reply. And I must admit that I'm not a scientist either. I studied physics for three years but struggled as i was not smart enough or disciplined enough to pursue it further. But my deep interest remains. In no way do I consider myself better than any other than 3d animation and composting in which case, I kick ass.

Programming. I tried. couldn't do it . So you are better than me I that respect.

I promise you i understand your points. If I haven't said it then I apologise. But I really do. And I really do know that the next big knock to known physics (like quantum mechanics was) is coming. And I will embrace it and so will everyone into the sciences.

My simple point is that I not going to come from a man like Lazar. A proven liar . He's used his chips and lost on my table of beliefs.

Had he gotten something right, I'm more than happy to listen mate. I want to see stable heavy elements. How exciting would that be. I want to see anti gravity and more than anything in my life before i die I want to know life out there exists. That's all I ask for before i die.

My mind is far from closed and im sorry if I gave you the impression it was. It's just closed to ton liars and charlatans like Lazar or Rossi with his E-CAT.

Knoen science is changing daily. I know that. Buy it's by people who can back up their claims. That's all I ask

Sorry if I haven't replied to all your questions but I need to switch phone off

originally posted by: Signals
They certainly erased some of our President's past, did they not?

Just why do you think that? What was erased?

originally posted by: SuspiciousTom

A quick google on the properties of element 115

A highly radioactive metal, of which only a few atoms have ever been made.
Melting Point: Unknown.
Natural abundance: Unknown

Source: www.rsc.org...
We must know so much about this element and why it's completely impossible for Bob's claims to be right in any possible way.

Do you even have a talent? Because if you do then you'd be open minded to the idea of people being capable to do .

Uggg, why can't we lay Lazar and his lies to rest?

Elements are just protons, neutrons and electrons. Element 115 is in a group of elements called pnictogens which include bismuth and arsenic.
One can cure diarrhea, one can be a poison and one cancels gravity and is ufo fuel. Whatever.

Can people understand that adding more protons on an atom is not going to produce a magic space fuel?


www.youtube.com...


Bob says he learned this from studying the ufo craft:

There are 2 types of gravity, one that acts on macroscopic objects (gravity A) and one that holds atoms together (gravity B). The one that holds atoms together is much much stronger and very short acting. So says Bob.


Except there already is a force we know that is holding atoms together and is short acting and is very strong, it's called the Strong Force. It's not gravity B.
Lazar says this force is projected several feet out in front of the craft. Well, the strong force (gravity B) acts only on distances much smaller than an atom. He even said it's very short range. But later he says it's projected out in front of the craft far enough to cause visible distortion.
He doesn't know enough about what he's talking about to realize he's making no sense.

Then he goes on to say that our sun can bend the light of stars so much that we can see stars that are behind the sun.
As if light from stars directly behind the sun are bent completely around the sun.


Lazar says element 115 is the first element to be part of an "island of stability" meaning it has a "magic" number of protons and neutrons to make it very stable.
The possibility of an "island of stability" was first proposed by Glenn T. Seaborg in the late 1960s. So it's been an idea way before the Lazar lies.

From Wiki:
"In nuclear physics, the island of stability is the prediction that a set of heavy isotopes with a near magic number of protons and neutrons will temporarily reverse the trend of decreasing stability in elements heavier than uranium."

But the most stable known isotope of 115, ununpentium-289, has a half-life of only 220 milliseconds.

Lazars science has not panned out and his actual knowledge of Earth science is poor.
In describing what current science knows about gravity he says there are 2 theories: One is a theory of gravitons, little particles of gravity that mass particles exchange and another theory is that gravity is a wave like electromagnetism.

This is all you need to know that he does NOT know science, he is a layman who read some pop-science books. Just enough to fool the average person.

There are not 2 separate theories of particles and waves, all subatomic entities are both wave and particle like.
If gravitons turn out to be real they will also be waves like every other subatomic thing.

He says they use a particle accelerator in the ufo to bombard element 115 which then makes useable energy and somehow makes gravity waves?
Bombarding heavy elements will cause them to break down (keep in mind element 115 is already going to be broken down in milliseconds anyway) and may release some energy but the part about making gravity waves is nonsense. We've already seen 115 decay but that doesn't matter, saying we get magic gravity waves from moving around some protons is pretty much saying nothing at all. He explains nothing.

If he was a physicist who actually studied gravity his explanations would reflect this fact.


This guy speaks like an amateur. He is a fraud and a discredit to the ufo field.

a reply to: joelr

There are not 2 separate theories of particles and waves, all subatomic entities are both wave and particle like. If gravitons turn out to be real they will also be waves like every other subatomic thing.

Wave–particle duality is an ongoing conundrum in modern physics.

Although the use of the wave-particle duality has worked well in physics, the meaning or interpretation has not been satisfactorily resolved to this day. There are some particles in which we cannot detect one or the other, so there are still separate theories for particle and wave, as they cannot be proven. Lazar is correct in this interpretation, and he is no amateur.

WP:

Niels Bohr regarded the "duality paradox" as a fundamental or metaphysical fact of nature. A given kind of quantum object, will exhibit sometimes wave, sometimes particle, character, in respectively different physical settings.

Additionally, the current research that shows evidence of a graviton was made long after he made his statement.

originally posted by: Signals
a reply to: hellobruce

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

They certainly erased some of our President's past, did they not?

Happens all the time.

Other than the broad general idea that "the government can erase a person's background", do you have any evidence that they did so with Lazar?

Is there any reason tho believe Lazar's story other than saying "he could be telling the truth, but all evidence that he is telling the truth has been erased". What specifically makes you say it was erased?

a reply to: Box of Rain

Why, there's no real evidence that he was ever there. Thus, PROOF!!!11! that he was there.

Or something like that.

originally posted by: Bedlam
a reply to: Box of Rain

Why, there's no real evidence that he was ever there. Thus, PROOF!!!11! that he was there.

Or something like that.

Yeah. Again, this sounds like a case of people wanting Lazar's story to be true that they are more apt to believe him in the absence of evidence -- just because they want it to be true.

I mean, I would LOVE his story to be true. I would love it if we really had secret alien technology for space propulsion, and be thrilled to have such direct proof that intelligent aliens have visited Earth. That would be fantastic news.

However, just because I want that, and want Bob Lazar's story to be true, it doesn't make his story any more true, nor does it mean I will give his story a "free pass" when it comes to evidence.

For me it's not Element 115 that makes Bob more credible.
Knowing the day and time a test was going on at the range
for the AVC (what they call the captured saucer)
and recording it on video with Lear was impressive.
Especially considering the level of close hold at Groom.
For the longest time doubters said there was zero proof he even
worked at Los Alamos,and that if that was ever proven,
it would lend credence.
Apparently the front page story about his rocket car in the
Los Alamos Monitor with him being noted at a physicist at the facility
wasn't enough.
But now that box is checked as Jeremy Corbell has a known physicist
who has gone on the record saying yep Bob was there as a scientist
(not janitor etc) & working on special access projects.
www.theeventchronicle.com...#
I for one think he may have been one of the few people on earth
that may have actually touched an alien craft .

originally posted by: UnderKingsPeak
For me it's not Element 115 that makes Bob more credible.
Knowing the day and time a test was going on at the range
for the AVC (what they call the captured saucer)
and recording it on video with Lear was impressive.

So predicting an element that was bound to be discovered sooner or later wasn't impressive, but going to watch a facility that develops experimental aircraft and seeing an experimental aircraft test is impressive? I think anybody could have predicted either one, and the video doesn't really show a "saucer" does it? Oh wait, what video?

Apparently the front page story about his rocket car in the
Los Alamos Monitor with him being noted at a physicist at the facility
wasn't enough.

If he had told the reporter he was a brain surgeon, that's what the reporter would have written, how does that newspaper story prove anything except that he had a rocket car?

But now that box is checked as Jeremy Corbell has a known physicist
who has gone on the record

Did Corbell's "Dr" Krangle state the field for his 1973 PhD from MIT? Where is his PhD thesis? What was the topic, what is the title, and is it in the MIT library? I wasn't able to verify Krangle's credentials so it looks to me like one person with dubious credentials 'verifying" another person's dubious credentials to baffle those with dubious investigative and critical thinking skills.

Lazar apparently worked for Kirk-Mayer, a LANL contractor, probably as a technician doing something with geiger counters, and he later formed "United Nuclear" again dealing with geiger counters. So if hypothetically someone had a flying saucer they wanted reverse engineered, who would they hire to reverse engineer it? A geiger counter technician? This is what I mean by dubious critical thinking skills.

People who think Bob Lazar is a physicist are people that probably aren't physicists themselves (probably including "Dr" Krangle unless you can produce documentation about his PhD in physics):

Hoaxes from Space Part 1: Bob Lazar

There’s also the fact that Lazar sounds like a scientist. He certainly seems to know a decent amount of scientifical-type lingo. At least, his non-scientist friends think so. Fellow physicists are more critical of him. In 1996 Physicist Dr. David L. Morgan wrote, “Mr. Lazar on many occasions demonstrates an obvious lack of understanding of current physical theories. On no occasion does he acknowledge that his scenario violates physical laws as we understand them, and on no occasion does he offer up any hints of new theories which would make his mechanism possible. Mr. Lazar has a propensity for re-defining scientific terms, and using scientific language in a confusing and careless way. For these reasons, I don’t feel that Lazar’s pseudo-scientific ramblings are really worthy of any kind of serious consideration.”

originally posted by: charlyv

Wave–particle duality is an ongoing conundrum in modern physics.

Although the use of the wave-particle duality has worked well in physics, the meaning or interpretation has not been satisfactorily resolved to this day. There are some particles in which we cannot detect one or the other, so there are still separate theories for particle and wave, as they cannot be proven. Lazar is correct in this interpretation, and he is no amateur.

What particles are there "in which we cannot detect one or the other,"? All subatomic entities have wave and particle aspects, it simply depends on how you measure them. There is not 2 separate theories. Even slightly alluding to that fact is as amateur as it gets. But he said it very directly that electromagnetism (photons) are waves.

The dual description of things like photons is used to describe things to laymen. Quantum mechanics has one consistent theory that describes wave and particle nature.
He thinks gravitons are particles and NOT waves like electromagnetism. He's got just enough knowledge to fool a layman who doesn't feel like investigating his ideas. But he sounds NOTHING like a scientist.

Additionally, the current research that shows evidence of a graviton was made long after he made his statement.

Is that right. Why don't you show me where we have "evidence of a graviton"?
The graviton idea started in the 1930's. Lazar's theory isn't even a theory. He says you bombard element 115 (protons, neutrons, electrons) with more protons and magically get gravity waves?
He doesn't even say how they handle and control gravity waves? Except that they put them in some container. But gravity waves are billions of times smaller than any atoms a container can be made of, he probably doesn't realize this.

He also uses the description of the STRONG FORCE as his description of gravity B. A scientist would know he was describing the strong force. He would also know it only acts on a scale far smaller than an atom.
Yet he goes on to say the gravity waves create a large visible disturbance. The strong force amplified to a macroscopic scale would be a black hole.

He is a fraud, 100%. Supporting his lies will keep the ufo field in the "crazy-person" zone.

a reply to: joelr

Seems to me you have not been keeping up with a great deal of the new research going on. You keep rambling up old stuff we all know. The science is rapidly changing. Check out some of the revelations from Cern recently....

Possible Discovery Of New Fundamental Particle Could Prove Existence Of Theoretical Particle Of Gravity

The bleeding edge particle physicists today are in many different camps, as we are in the infancy of quantum discovery.

We all know that Lazar was not a particle physicist. He does not have to be. You certainly are not one, and either am I.

I believe he witnessed things that not a person today can understand, and my money would bet that you will change your tune once those incredible scientists at CERN get a grasp of not only what they have already discovered, but what will come out of it in the near future. You blame a person that does not fully understand what anyone of this planet really does not understand and he is just an easy target because he told about it.

Having an open mind is the only way we will be able to contemplate the things that are before us.

originally posted by: Arbitrageur
I wasn't able to verify Krangle's credentials so it looks to me like one person with dubious credentials 'verifying" another person's dubious credentials to baffle those with dubious investigative and critical thinking skills.

Whoops...looks like they're onto you...

No doubt detractors of Lazar’s claims will be doing further research into Krangle’s background, but it could be that the question of whether Lazar is a scientist has finally been resolved.

See? They knew you were going to do that.

Interesting. He states he has 50 patents - he's got one, the golf ball range finder. He's REFERENCED by other people about 50 times with regard to his golf ball patent, but that's something different.

Also, no published papers, no thesis.

eta: It doesn't seem like he ever had a residence in Massachusetts. OTOH, it does look like he might have gone to SMU. At least he lived nearby.

originally posted by: charlyv
a reply to: joelr

Seems to me you have not been keeping up with a great deal of the new research going on. You keep rambling up old stuff we all know. The science is rapidly changing. Check out some of the revelations from Cern recently....

Possible Discovery Of New Fundamental Particle Could Prove Existence Of Theoretical Particle Of Gravity

The bleeding edge particle physicists today are in many different camps, as we are in the infancy of quantum discovery.

We all know that Lazar was not a particle physicist. He does not have to be. You certainly are not one, and either am I.

I believe he witnessed things that not a person today can understand, and my money would bet that you will change your tune once those incredible scientists at CERN get a grasp of not only what they have already discovered, but what will come out of it in the near future. You blame a person that does not fully understand what anyone of this planet really does not understand and he is just an easy target because he told about it.

Having an open mind is the only way we will be able to contemplate the things that are before us.

You are not having an open mind. You are being a sucker. Big difference