In / Out ...and Shake it all About, Europe and the UK

Shadenfreude

The bitter irony of the Brexit campaign is not lost on the Scottish Indie Yes voters.

And while many watch, mystified and shaking their heads at us fickle Scots, who, “ Don’t want to be ruled by Westminister “ but, “ seem happy enough to be ruled by Brussels “

A word of caution, though we appear fickle to some, but we are still canny. So for those of you shaking your heads at us………

For the 47% of Scottish referendum voters who voted to leave the UK in September 2014, this 2016EU referendum can be seen as another way to gain independence from Westminister through the back door so to speak....or at the very least have another " shot " at it. I am under no illusions and I am aware that there is no guarantee that Scotland would be " granted " another run at it, even in the event of a " Leave" result...but there is no denying that this could result in a constitutional change which in turn might lead into a new Indie vote.

Cries of " FREEDOM " go hand in hand with HOPE !

Watching the run up to this In/Out referendum is like watching a BBC repeat. The same “fear campaign” tactics are being used by the English Tories on the little Englanders as was used on the Scots during the Scottish Indie campaign.
It is priceless!

If you vote to Leave EU….we will lose millions of £££ of investment when huge corporations move their base out of the the UK = same threats were made to Scotland if we voted out.

Cameron’s package of changes to UK / EU membership = Anyone remember the VOW delivered days before our Scottish Indie vote?

Not even going to mention the immigration issues, as that takes up more than enough space on these boards.
Ad nauseum.

Of course this referendum is not about Scotland, but the UK as a whole. Which of course includes our Welsh and Irish fellow brits. It is being sold on the idea of what is best for the UK as a whole.
And there, as they say, is the rub.

If the time ever comes, that the UK votes to leave the EU, will that then mean that we start a dismantling of the UK ?
As not all of the UK is up for Brexit ?

TPTB would never risk that

Here we sit, in a United Kingdom, being ruled from a central government in London who are in turn obligated to EU rules, laws and policies. They offer us a choice to make a decision to remove one tier of centralised government. Or do they?
I think it’s a done deal.

Cameron’s done the Deal already, just like the Vow...it is all over... bar the shouting.

♫ You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave ♫

Shadenfreude.

a reply to: cosmickat

Latest polls are showing a majority wishing to leave the EU in Wales now...UKIP are also expecting a lot of seats in the Welsh assembly elections in May.

Obviously the polls were wrong in last year's general election so who can say, we'll see in a few weeks.
All I know for sure is how I'm voting...and that is to leave.

the scottish referendum came down to facts and rhetoric, while salmond and the SNP said it would be better out, the facts could not be ignored.
the facts were called project fear by the leave campaign and everyone voted to stay.

brexit believers already call facts project fear, the vote comes down to how racist a country we are, the entire leave campaign is based on immigrants and asylum seekers.

a reply to: stinkelbaum

Oh dear, it is hardly 'racist' to wish for a needs based immigration system, do you consider every other country outside of the EU to be racist then?

How about wishing for a return of national sovereignty and supremacy of UK courts? What label you got for that?

a reply to: grainofsand

Interesting times..for sure.

For me...I don't know if I will waste the energy TO vote, let alone HOW I would vote.
This is my dilemma.

a reply to: cosmickat

Personally I would always recommend voting, even if only to spoil your ballot paper with your written thoughts.
If it goes tits up afterwards and you voted opposite then at least you can say told you so, or not in my name etc

a reply to: stinkelbaum

All politics come down to facts and rhetoric don't they ? We listen, and choose, which to believe and which to discard.

the facts were called project fear by the leave campaign and everyone voted to stay

Not sure if you are making an example of rhetoric here...but not everyone voted to stay, 53% did, the rest wanted independence. So...not everyone.

Also, not clear how you make the jump to racism...at all ??

a reply to: cosmickat

Racist is just a cheap shot label to use against anyone advocating needs based control on immigration from the EU.

Of course if the honourable member can explain why exactly the UK 'needs' tens of thousands of unskilled labourers from eastern Europe dragging down wages, then I'd be interested in the explanation.
...shouting racist is obviously the easiest option when one struggles with mature debate lol

a reply to: cosmickat

Why is it always called Project Fear when the view and impact is not one you agree with?

The stay in campaign say leaving presents a risk of financial instability. Fear?
The exit campaign says that staying in makes us more vulnerable to future terrorist attacks. Fear?

Jumping up and down and talking about so called project Fear is pointless - there are pros and cons on both sides and both can (and do) play the Fear game. The Scotland referendum was no different but of course you wish to concentrate on accusing the BBC of bias because it plays into your own perspective. Not knocking you, it's human instinct.

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: cosmickat

Latest polls are showing a majority wishing to leave the EU in Wales now...UKIP are also expecting a lot of seats in the Welsh assembly elections in May.

Obviously the polls were wrong in last year's general election so who can say, we'll see in a few weeks.
All I know for sure is how I'm voting...and that is to leave.

That's interesting because I was under the impression that Wales was one of the regions in the UK that benefit most from EU subsidies - it's hardly project Fear to point out that Brexit means those subsidies go, it's a fact. In the polls you've seen are people aware of that and accept it? I thought Plaid Cymru and Welsh Labour were both for staying in with that being a fairly big reason.

Just like in America TPTB will get their way with voting fraud , Remember how many voted in the Scottish Indie campaign .

Everyone over 16 was allowed to vote from a population of 5.8 million , yet the figures did not add up and votes cast weeks before by pensioners & postal voters went down to Westminster to be counted .

£ 70 + million per day to europe + paying to the common wealth time to give Europe the boot

a reply to: uncommitted

Perhaps more Welsh folk are not so full of fear that the EU 'subsidies' will not be replaced by funding from the UK government?
Those 'subsidies' are after all just UK money coming back to the UK.
Also remember the £8 Billion on top of that which will be coming back when those EU membership fees are not paid.

Of course I expect the cries of "Westminster won't replace that money!" but none of us know that so to assert otherwise would just be more scaremongering.

Conversely there is no guarantee that the 'subsidies' will continue if we stay in the EU, especially with Turkey looking at a piece of the pie - all unknowns, but I know I'm voting leave, willing to take my chances with a sovereign UK.

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: uncommitted

Perhaps more Welsh folk are not so full of fear that the EU 'subsidies' will not be replaced by funding from the UK government?
Those 'subsidies' are after all just UK money coming back to the UK.
Also remember the £8 Billion on top of that which will be coming back when those EU membership fees are not paid.

Of course I expect the cries of "Westminster won't replace that money!" but none of us know that so to assert otherwise would just be more scaremongering.

Conversely there is no guarantee that the 'subsidies' will continue if we stay in the EU, especially with Turkey looking at a piece of the pie - all unknowns, but I know I'm voting leave, willing to take my chances with a sovereign UK.

Saying Westminster won't replace it isn't scaremongering as I'm not aware there has been any commitment that they would - not sure why you would consider that it even should really, but the trouble here is that whatever is said on either side of the fence (for the purpose of this thread I will say I'm currently not decided one way or another, I understand the main points of both sides but the exit side talks in very broad strokes at the moment) is considered by the other as scaremongering.

Anyway, Wales could very easily work out subsidies if we do leave the EU, it's a lovely place for camps............................

originally posted by: uncommitted
Anyway, Wales could very easily work out subsidies if we do leave the EU, it's a lovely place for camps............................

Lol, the Beacons are a lovely place and was my childhood escape every Summer!
...and yes, I think more people in Wales are starting to think that a UK billions of £'s better off as a result of not paying EU membership fees could negotiate it's position successfully in a sovereign UK.

None of us know though, all unknowns relating to every issue, in fact the only thing I can say I actually know for a fact is that I'm voting leave. The rest I simply believe and hope.