9/11 Experiments: The Force Behind the Motion

originally posted by: scottyirnbru
Just guess work and scientific ignorance. It's not a scalable model. It doesn't accurately reflect anything.

Yet again. If you are gonna claim conspiracy you need to solve it all. Can't just point at one little bit. Every singe tiny detail needs an explanation. This is where all conspiracies fall apart.

For the doubters, could anyone of you tell me how many people need to be involved to organise and carry out this utterly massive cover up? Once you've hypothesised a number, can you explain why it's managed to stay silent?

Black operations are planned and executed all over the globe regularily. Very few of any of the details come to light and when they do it almost never tells the whole story. Deals get made, gag orders get sent out and evidence gets sealed, regardless if the operation caused the lives of innocents to be lost.

With the newly established homeland security getting access to all agencies investigations, and a war on terror in full swing, it really would not be difficult to gag and seal any piece of testimony or evidence that came to light before it got any attention. The majority of innocent government employees would believe they are doing their job while handing the info to the appropriate department. Whats to blow the whistle on?

There are many corporations out there with 10's of thousands of employees, all playing a part in a single objective to sell a product. The one that sells it has no idea how it is made, the lawyers and lobbyists that protect it have no idea if it is stolen or safe. It called compartmentalizing.

Your argument is not original nor is it meant to raise any doubts to the believers in a cover up. It is simply meant to brag.

a reply to: Informer1958

I have been asking for anyone to post a computerized visual simulation of the NIST models on buildings 1 and 2 for some time and none of our members have brought one forth. There is one for 7 that relies on a black hole at the base of the building to suck in all the failing structure inside the building to make sure it doesnt give any resistance. That is not the only time NIST just made snip up. Like the furniture and wall layout in the north tower I believe that was fabricated to get the fire as hot as they could and move the heat where they needed to cause the failures they were trying to prove, not discover. Apparently they couldnt find the 'as-built' floor plans from the TI's which is very illigal to not have any. I would be shocked why the fire department did not push for charges since it could very well be the cause of death for fire fighters since they would not have known what they were dealimg with up there.

Double

Post

I have been asking for anyone to post a computerized visual simulation of the NIST models on buildings 1 and 2 for some time and none of our members have brought one forth

I don't think there is one..

originally posted by: wildb

I have been asking for anyone to post a computerized visual simulation of the NIST models on buildings 1 and 2 for some time and none of our members have brought one forth

I don't think there is one..

There are amateur attempts that I have seen, but those who fully believe the OS would not dare post them because they are not very convincing.

WTC 7 is the only indorsed simulation I have seen. I have only seen it with an extremely low resolution though.

a reply to: MALBOSIA

and a war on terror in full swing, it really would not be difficult to gag and seal any piece of testimony or evidence that came to light before it got any attention.

If you take the conspiracy at face value the number of people needed to complete the tasks would be huge.
How many people to accumulate the airplane parts to distribute on the pentagon lawn?
How many to place the parts in the proper locations before the news people get there?
Who painted the missile to look like a plane?
WHo were the ground crews to load the missile onto the plane?

Who rigged the NYC planes to fly remotely?
How many did it take to kill all the original passengers and dispose of the bodies?
How many to rig the WTC's and 7 for CD ?
How many were paid off in the process of buying the explosives and det cord?

Each of these minor parts to the major event would take a lot more people than conspiracy people think.

And they would all have to be OK with being accessory to mass murder.
New York had the death penalty and extradition in 2001.

If the government was any good at hiding things the Flint water problem would never come to light.
The 911 conspiracy is just a myth in the minds of a few people.

originally posted by: MALBOSIA

originally posted by: scottyirnbru
Just guess work and scientific ignorance. It's not a scalable model. It doesn't accurately reflect anything.

Yet again. If you are gonna claim conspiracy you need to solve it all. Can't just point at one little bit. Every singe tiny detail needs an explanation. This is where all conspiracies fall apart.

For the doubters, could anyone of you tell me how many people need to be involved to organise and carry out this utterly massive cover up? Once you've hypothesised a number, can you explain why it's managed to stay silent?

Black operations are planned and executed all over the globe regularily. Very few of any of the details come to light and when they do it almost never tells the whole story. Deals get made, gag orders get sent out and evidence gets sealed, regardless if the operation caused the lives of innocents to be lost.

With the newly established homeland security getting access to all agencies investigations, and a war on terror in full swing, it really would not be difficult to gag and seal any piece of testimony or evidence that came to light before it got any attention. The majority of innocent government employees would believe they are doing their job while handing the info to the appropriate department. Whats to blow the whistle on?

There are many corporations out there with 10's of thousands of employees, all playing a part in a single objective to sell a product. The one that sells it has no idea how it is made, the lawyers and lobbyists that protect it have no idea if it is stolen or safe. It called compartmentalizing.

Your argument is not original nor is it meant to raise any doubts to the believers in a cover up. It is simply meant to brag.

You have thousands of people all keeping a terrible terrible secret. Not a single one breaks or leaks or anything like that. You must surely realise the highly improbable nature of what you are suggesting?

a reply to: scottyirnbru

You have thousands of people all keeping a terrible terrible secret.

Lets not forget the wives and husbands of the actors.
Hush money does run out.
Divorce means splitting hush money checks. Divorce lawyers get a cut too.
Death of an actor can cause grieving widows to open up.

There would be just too many 'regular Joe' actors involved to keep a lid on things.

originally posted by: scottyirnbru

originally posted by: MALBOSIA

originally posted by: scottyirnbru
Just guess work and scientific ignorance. It's not a scalable model. It doesn't accurately reflect anything.

Yet again. If you are gonna claim conspiracy you need to solve it all. Can't just point at one little bit. Every singe tiny detail needs an explanation. This is where all conspiracies fall apart.

For the doubters, could anyone of you tell me how many people need to be involved to organise and carry out this utterly massive cover up? Once you've hypothesised a number, can you explain why it's managed to stay silent?

Black operations are planned and executed all over the globe regularily. Very few of any of the details come to light and when they do it almost never tells the whole story. Deals get made, gag orders get sent out and evidence gets sealed, regardless if the operation caused the lives of innocents to be lost.

With the newly established homeland security getting access to all agencies investigations, and a war on terror in full swing, it really would not be difficult to gag and seal any piece of testimony or evidence that came to light before it got any attention. The majority of innocent government employees would believe they are doing their job while handing the info to the appropriate department. Whats to blow the whistle on?

There are many corporations out there with 10's of thousands of employees, all playing a part in a single objective to sell a product. The one that sells it has no idea how it is made, the lawyers and lobbyists that protect it have no idea if it is stolen or safe. It called compartmentalizing.

Your argument is not original nor is it meant to raise any doubts to the believers in a cover up. It is simply meant to brag.

You have thousands of people all keeping a terrible terrible secret. Not a single one breaks or leaks or anything like that. You must surely realise the highly improbable nature of what you are suggesting?

What is highly improba is the OS and it is also void any reasonable motive. Military spending and centralized government were real winners. Clearly not a bunch of lunatics from the desert that were smart enough to pull off an attack like that and too dumb to realize that they just picked a gight with the most powerful governments/militarys in the world.

Sure if you want to believe that those that need something the most (military slending and centralized control) had this fall in their lap without having a hand in it themselves is exrtemely nieve and dangerously ignorant.

Do you wait to pay your bills cause you expect to win the lottery? No? Why would the military industrial complex driven by neocons do the same?

originally posted by: samkent
a reply to: scottyirnbru

You have thousands of people all keeping a terrible terrible secret.

Lets not forget the wives and husbands of the actors.
Hush money does run out.
Divorce means splitting hush money checks. Divorce lawyers get a cut too.
Death of an actor can cause grieving widows to open up.

There would be just too many 'regular Joe' actors involved to keep a lid on things.

Why would most, if any of them know the full picture? They think they are saving their country from terror, not helping those in their government conduct terror.

What about compartmemtalization do you not understand?

One thing that stands out in Jonathan Cole's video is that he drops an iron weight from a height of at least ten or even more of his "floors", which is of course not at all what happened in reality in those two WTC collapses.

If he would have honed his video to the real circumstances, he had to drop that weight (which would have had to be much flatter and thus thinner) from ONLY the height of one floor.
You all do know of course, that his cement tile next "floor" would have never ever failed.

I hope you really do understand that, after all my posts about the mathematical evidence brought up by that it was simply impossible, even when we assume that half of the core columns, half of the perimeter columns were removed from the equations, and to top it off, half of the normal strength of all steel was left over. And still the math showed no floor, column would fail :

Mathematical Models of Progressive Collapse and the Question of How Did the World Trade Centers Perish, by Charles M. Beck :
arxiv.org...

We were lead to believe in the earlier years of 9/11 official explanations that one floor failed, dropped down the height of one floor and impacted the next lower floor, which failed, and so on.
Jonathan leaves us with the impression that "something" fell on his cement tiles from a crazy height of tens of floors. Which is not by far what happened.

IF, and only IF we are supposed to believe in some "natural" pancake-collapse theory (already a long time ago abandoned by all serious Mathematicians and Physics teachers), then we would have to introduce a naturally occurring, chaotic collapse, and not some kind of cartoon-like "donut-floors" dropping on each other, like massive rings on rings.

www.youtube.com...


On 05-03-2016 John Sosman (114 YouTube videos of his own) wrote in the Comments section of the above YouTube video about the missing bolted connections inside most of the ends of the Vierendeel facade column sections, observed after they collapsed.

This is something I have asked myself too in some posts here during all these years.
And it's most puzzling to me that the bottom ends of these facade columns were fitted quite deep inside the boxed off top-ends of the lower Vierendeel columns. One would expect those boxed off top-ends to have been bend open when the facades gave way out- or inwards.

But it appears as if nearly every full Vierendeel facade unit was lifted neatly up out of those boxed-off long top-end caps of the Vierendeel units below them, and caused the bolts holding those Vierendeel units together, to thus fail in an upward fashion.
They then sheared off and the broken bolt-ends fell out of the two or four drilled bolt-holes.
But it seems as if nearly all broken-off bolts their tops inside the column ends' access holes were missing. There are so many photos of neatly disconnected facade column ends, with not ONE jammed broken bolt-end left in them.

While when we assume that facade units were compressed in a NATURAL collapse, then hinged and buckled out-, or inwards, we may expect those bolts to have been so strongly bend first, that a lot of their broken parts would have been left behind, jammed in their now deformed, not round anymore, but deformed in convex shaped drill-holes.

And then we also have whole facade units that failed on one floor level as one entity, toppled outwards and fell down as one huge "plate", as seen in the collapse videos.
There are only a few, or just one photo of bend bolts inside those Vierendeel column connectors I recall to have ever seen. All other photos show neatly "guillotined" facade column ends, and no bending of any importance of their top-end caps. Or strong deformation of their drill-holes.

So read what John Sosman has to say in his own words about the same discrepancies he noted in all explanations of the WTC collapses :

The "house of cards" theory actually does apply- to some extent, in regards to the perimeter columns. Here's why.

An examination of available photographic evidence of "Ground Zero" shows many column ends. The columns on the four exterior walls of the Twin Towers were each 14" square (box beams) that were welded to wide horizontal spandrel plates in groups of three columns, the so-called "chex" pieces that can be seen in the old construction films of the Towers being assembled.
These units were 36' long, or three floors' worth. On the ends of the square columns are welded plates and on the inside face of each column, near each end of every 36' piece, is an access hole easily reached from inside the offices, at every third floor.

The access holes were used in order to install the bolts which connected the columns to each other every three floors from bottom to top. The bolts were about 1" or 1 1/8".

In effect these bolts made the string of 3-column "chex" pieces, from ground level up to the top floor, all one connected piece about 1300 feet long.

The "chex" were also bolted to each other by means of the spandrel plates.

So each of the four exterior walls was essentially one big piece of connected steel, connected by welds and high-strength bolts.

However, huge thin panels, which the exterior walls were, needed the floor structures every 12 feet to make the building strong. The exterior walls, panels about 200 feet by 1300 feet, and only 14 inches thick, were (to scale) more or less eggshell-thin, almost like sheets of paper standing on edge.

The floor assemblies, also made from modular prefab units hoisted into place by a crane and then welded and bolted together, were extremely strong, consisting of steel-reinforced concrete 4 and 5 inches thick placed over corrugated steel sheet.
Shear loops extended from the supporting trusses into the concrete, and other reinforcing bar, mesh, etc., solidly bonded the steel structure of the floors to both the exterior walls and the interior core columns.

The final result was a lot like the familiar steel shopping cart, made of welded heavy wire in a cross grid.
A shopping cart could be dropped out of a plane, then run over by a train, and then set on fire. Any child ( and presumably any adult) could still recognize it as a shopping cart.

The Twin Towers were much stronger than a shopping cart. Yet we have been led to believe that gravity and fire supposedly destroyed them to mostly powder.

Back to the "house of cards":

The Ground Zero photos (from the available sets, made by various photographers) indicate very strongly that the bolts originally connecting the "chex" column end plates were removed, on some pretext, by using the access holes that could be reached from the office spaces, over some period of time prior to September 11, 2001.

If they were not removed beforehand, where are they? Why do the column end plates show no damage, and have no bolts whatsoever, while a few others show bent bolts still in place but apparently undamaged end plates?

There were four or six bolts per column every three stories, so there were thousands of them, and they should have been visible in the aftermath, but instead, almost all the visible column ends in the Ground Zero photo collections have NO bolts, and no apparent damage to the end plates.

But wouldn't that make the Towers weak or prone to fall down?

No, it wouldn't; at least, not until a certain something else happened.

--more--

It is really quite puzzling where all these bolts have gone...

Keep reading. This is where the house of cards idea comes into play.

As long as the floors were intact, it would have made zero difference to the strength and stability of the Twin Towers if every single bolt connecting the "chex" column ends had been removed (as I believe they were, or most of them).

The static weight of the Towers was plenty to keep any local winds from pushing those unbolted column ends apart horizontally. But mainly, the floor structures every twelve feet made those exterior bolts unnecessary.

The Towers were, when finished, essentially a single piece, a huge 3-dimensional grid of steel, but the removal of the bolts would have made the horizontal joints on the exterior walls be potentially loose every three stories. However, these many unbolted joints couldn't move in any direction, or come apart whatsoever, until the core, along with the floor assemblies, was destroyed.

Once the core and the floors were destroyed (which was done with conventional high explosives with the help of some type or types of nano-explosive or nano-incendiary) the exterior walls became like the "house of cards", edge to edge or end to end, the result being that a large proportion of those exterior walls, when they reached the ground, were in the same 36' lengths they had when delivered to the site decades earlier, and just as convenient to haul away on trucks.

Note: Some areas of the exterior walls were not unbolted, it seems, from the fact of the large standing pieces of exterior wall after the collapse of each Tower.
They were leaning and no longer in a flat, or geometric plane, but the end bolt connections and the spandrel connections must have been still in place, holding those remaining pieces up, though they no longer had the lateral support of the floor/core structure and as a result were twisted and leaning from the vertical.

Now for some really investigative evidence for what could have happened in those two collapses, IF it would have been a natural collapse (a fairy tale by the way) :

WTC Progressive Floor Collapse Model - World Trade Center Evidence-Based Research :
sharpprintinginc.com...:555

Perimeter Wall Collapse Model - World Trade Center Evidence-Based Research :
sharpprintinginc.com...:481

originally posted by: samkent

If you take the conspiracy at face value the number of people needed to complete the tasks would be huge.

The number that knew what they were doing or involved in would be low.

How many people to accumulate the airplane parts to distribute on the pentagon lawn?

Probably less the number needed to make sure there was not a single piece of video of the plane from security cameras

How many to place the parts in the properlocations before the news people get there?

By "the" you mean very few and by "proper" you mean randomly?

Who painted the missile to look like a plane?

The pentagon? I didnt see anything. Did you?

WHo were the ground crews to load the missile onto the plane?

Missile on a plane? ... ok. Whatever that means, who was the ground crew that loaded missiles durring any black-op?

Who rigged the NYC planes to fly remotely?

Who said anyone did? Are you going to ask who made the hologram next?

How many did it take to kill all the original passengers and dispose of the bodies?

Probably the same amount it took to hijack the planes and fly them into those buildings. Have you heard differently?

How many to rig the WTC's and 7 for CD ?

I think you would have to identify what was used first to pit a figure on it. I too hope there is a proper investigation into that. Lets cross our fingers buddy.

How many were paid off in the process of buying the explosives and det cord?
too much to speculate. Wiring yp anything though could be easily hidden behind the services and upgrades that were going on in the WTC 24hours a day, 7 days a week.

Each of these minor parts to the major event would take a lot more people than conspiracy people think.

If you keep painting all "conspiracy people" with the same brush you are going to find it hard to understand anything at all. Not an admirable trait.

And they would all have to be OK with being accessory to mass murder.
New York had the death penalty and extradition in 2001.

Only those that rigged the explosives and flew the planes, all of which could very likely be proffessional terrorists.

If the government was any good at hiding things the Flint water problem would never come to light.

The doubt about the.OS did c9me to light and went nowhere as the Flint problem likely will. Let me know when a government officials goes to jail.

The 911 conspiracy is just a myth in the minds of a few people.

The few that still care. It has been 15 years. There was about a 5 year period from 08-13 where nobody here in Canada believed the OS but we just moved on.

a reply to: MALBOSIA

Why would most, if any of them know the full picture? They think they are saving their country from terror, not helping those in their government conduct terror.

Uhhh lets see.
I helped carry plane parts onto the lawn of the biggest event this century.
Yea I'm involved.

They know the events and their involvement.
You can't compartmentalize that level of involvement.

originally posted by: samkent
a reply to: MALBOSIA

Why would most, if any of them know the full picture? They think they are saving their country from terror, not helping those in their government conduct terror.

Uhhh lets see.
I helped carry plane parts onto the lawn of the biggest event this century.
Yea I'm involved.

They know the events and their involvement.
You can't compartmentalize that level of involvement.

Ya I could see that kind of self-dialog if I was the receptionist and asked to do that. And if I remember the plane parts were inside the building, not on the lawn. There were actually a bunch of guys sweeping the lawn to pick anything UP. Were you alive in 2001? These arguments seem very "no im not, you are" kind of level. You know what I mean?

I forgot to link to the two other 9/11 based math studies by Charles M. Beck :

1. arxiv.org... (6 pages, 1 figure)
Title : Role of Compaction Ratio in the Mathematical Model of Progressive Collapse.
Charles M. Beck, submitted to ASCE Journal of Engineering Mechanics.


2. arxiv.org... (24 pages, 7 figures)
Title : Descent curve and the phases of collapse of WTC 7.
Charles M. Beck.

3. arxiv.org... (15 pages, 7 figures)
Mathematical Models of Progressive Collapse and the Question of How Did the World Trade Centers Perish
Charles M. Beck, also submitted to ASCE Journal of Engineering Mechanics

ASCE is the American Society of Civil Engineers. They accepted his thesis.
So it's not some bloke blowing off steam, he was accepted in their journal as a serious contributor.

But why? Why all this effort and for what? We went to war in Iraq based on a lie so it clearly wasn't a desire for war. If it's more money well how much more money? And for who? If you were rich enough to plan it all you'd probably already be fabulously wealthy. Is it power? Who has it? I don't see a one world government.

You can't point to one part and say it's a conspiracy, you've to explain the whole lot otherwise it all falls down.

originally posted by: vjr1113
i think if he rebuilt a wtc exactly the way it was in real life where it weighed thousands of tons, and it fall the same way when being hit by an airplane with jet fuel, then i would be interested in his experiment. i dont buy that a 5 ft model made out of wood has the same weight as the 38k tons or whatever it was that fell in on itself. im not buying this model experiment at all.

In construction and in physics you can build things to scale to demonstrate how forces act on buildings, airplanes and anything you build really. It is a common practice to experiment small before you build big.

Again the point is, there was not enough force pressing down to make the lower undamaged floors collapse.

The lower floors that were not hit or on fire held that weight up for decades, so why would they fail to continue to hold up even less weight?

a reply to: scottyirnbru

But why? Why all this effort and for what? We went to war in Iraq based on a lie so it clearly wasn't a desire for war. If it's more money well how much more money? And for who? If you were rich enough to plan it all you'd probably already be fabulously wealthy. Is it power? Who has it? I don't see a one world government.

You can't point to one part and say it's a conspiracy, you've to explain the whole lot otherwise it all falls down.

This film will answer all your questions to why the Pentagon wanted to go to war in Afghanistan and Iraq.

The government lied to the American people, nothing new really. Yes it is about money and power.


The New American Century. Part 1/10

This film goes in detail through the untold history of The Project for the New American Century with tons of archival footage and connects it right into the present. This film exposes how every major war in US history was based on a complete fraud with video of insiders themselves admitting it.

This film shows how the first film theaters in the US were used over a hundred years ago to broadcast propaganda to rile the American people into the Spanish-American War.

This film shows the white papers of the oil company Unocal which called for the creation of a pipeline through Afghanistan and how their exact needs were fulfilled through the US invasion of Afghanistan.

This film shows how Halliburton under their "cost plus" exclusive contract with the US Government went on a mad dash spending spree akin to something out of the movie Brewster's Millions, yet instead of blowing $30 million they blew through BILLIONS by literally burning millions of dollars worth of hundred thousand dollar cars and trucks if they had so much as a flat tire. "A stunning film.

It should be seen as widely as possible, in cinemas, bars, clubs, at meetings and, of course, through the internet. I'm sure the film will continue to be a source of debate and political education for many years.

Maybe until the war criminals have been brought to trial." - Ken Loach While Massimo Mazzuccos first political documentary, GLOBAL DECEIT (2006), focused on the long list of inconsistencies in the official version of the 9/11 attacks, THE NEW AMERICAN CENTURY explores the historical, philosophical and economic background that suggests a matrix for such events that is much closer to home than the so-called "Islamic terrorism".

The film provides solid evidence for the true reasons behind the Afghanistan and Iraq wars, whose unfolding is described in chilling detail in a document called "Project for the New American Century", published in the year 2,000, that seems to have served as the actual blueprint for such dramatic events

www.youtube.com...

originally posted by: scottyirnbru
But why? Why all this effort and for what? We went to war in Iraq based on a lie so it clearly wasn't a desire for war. If it's more money well how much more money? And for who? If you were rich enough to plan it all you'd probably already be fabulously wealthy. Is it power? Who has it? I don't see a one world government.

You can't point to one part and say it's a conspiracy, you've to explain the whole lot otherwise it all falls down.

Well Many of the people on president Bush's cabinet including the VP had partial ownership in companies that won major defense contracts for security, weapons systems, supply chain and construction. This is just the benefit from the WARS
The vice presidents company made nearly 40 BILLION from the Iraq war.

readersupportednews.org...



The implications on the price of oil saw a dramatic spike in oil prices after 9/11 through 2008. Again, many of Bush's cabinet members were serious energy business people, specifically oil.

A majority of President Bush's new cabinet are millionaires and several are multimillionaires.

According to information from financial disclosure reports, released by the Office of Government Ethics, most cabinet appointees have amassed their fortunes in stock options.

Now a Washington-based think tank is questioning whether some of the cabinet members could face a possible conflict of interest.

It is not unusual for American politicians to be rich. For the last two decades more than half of all cabinet members have been millionaires.

Strong ties

But the number of millionaires in this new cabinet highlights the influence of money in American politics.


"You don¹t come to Washington and give up your life and business unless you have a lot of money," said Charles Lewis, executive director of the Center for Public Integrity.

What makes the new Bush administration different from previous wealthy cabinets is that so many of the officials have links to the same industry - oil.

news.bbc.co.uk...

Donald Rumsfelds and Michael Chertoff's company won many of the contracted for the new equipment that the TSA purchased, the very agency that was created in response to 9/11. This included the body scanning technology which was completely held by their company...

gawker.com...

9/11 Generated hundreds of billions of dollars for people who had direct ties to Bush's administration.