My question as a new member: Is the religious-forum the dirty-laundry corner on ATS?

Just enter the forum naked and worry not about dirty laundry. Its not your job either to wash the clothes of another. We were all naked once.

originally posted by: Willingly
a reply to: Prezbo369

Ohh..good you told me. I thought I could broaden my view while discussing with others. My bad I was confused about that. Now I know better. It's not about discussing. It's about fruitless debating for the sake of being right. And I'm fine with that. I just thought...maybe thinking (for myself) is not my strong suit.

Ah yeah, I think you'll fit right in...

a reply to: DISRAELI

Someone claims to want a peaceful discussion? Then come in peace, in good faith.

I did come in peace, but maybe not in a way some would have wanted me to show it. I'm not humble the way some want me to be. I don't have to. Being humble for the wrong reasons never takes one anywhere but being looked at as weak. Being humble is for those who can affort it. I can't. I have nothing left to loose. Being more humble would be impossible.

a reply to: eisegesis

Just enter the forum naked and worry not about dirty laundry. Its not your job either to wash the clothes of another. We were all naked once.

So...I wasn't naked enough? Being more naked than being naked is just impossible. Anybody here who does not like my kind of being naked?

Its not your job either to wash the clothes of another.

How can you know better than me what my job is? You're my boss? If so, I would know.

Religion and politics on ATS, are no different than out there in the real world. Both are sensitive topics for people, and the discussion can become heated very quickly. When it comes to religion, you are talking about peoples core beliefs in life. A persons religion is what they base their whole life on. It IS their life. So it really isn't surprising they sometimes feel personally attacked when anyone questions their faith, no matter how reasonable the questions may be.

No, I don't think the religious forum is the dirty laundry forum. There are a few forums that have gone far beyond that on ATS. I would venture to say those forums are good to stay out of unless you want to get into a virtual fist fight. lol.

originally posted by: Willingly
a reply to: Raggedyman

Yes it's an interesting place. Some people tend to whip the dead horse Push their agenda, evangelise, attack and rant It's always a heard mentality, someone always knows better and wants to persuade you they are right and you are stupid Stay away? Probably not a bad idea

But I love to talk about god-concepts! It's one of my favourite hobbys!

I also enjoy talking about people's various concepts of god. Even more so, i like to hear people's reasons for believing in their particular flavor. I do not accept any of the concepts that have ever been proposed because i don't find any of the proposed reasons for believing very compelling. What frustrates me the most about the religious position in these discussions is the total disdain for reason and logic. As if this process doesn't matter. Reason and logic are first and foremost in most of the forums on this site but for some reason, when it comes to religion, and para topics, faith, belief, and opinion, get the driver's seat. Some of them scoff and get indignant when you ask for the reason they believe, as if it's an insult to want to know why or how they came to their position.

Try to use faith and opinion as your argument in the aircraft projects forum and you will also get indignant replies.

Use faith and opinion to describe your position on any technical problem and you will rightfully be taken to task for not being reasonable.

The problem in the religious forum is that people making the claims cannot produce any reason to back up those claims. Then, when people don't believe those claims for lack of any evidence or any compelling reason, the claimant will usually dismiss the want/need for further explanation and that is when the convo devolves into bickering the same old tired lines that have been used for thousands of years.

Atheists are not new to the scene. They were here since before the bible was written. We have been asking the same questions for millenia.

Why do you believe in your version of god? Why should i believe in your version of god?

When you learn how to answer these questions with evidence, reason, and logic, the argument will end. Because this is what the argument is.

Faith vs. reason

And why faith doesn't explain anything.

a reply to: Klassified

No, I don't think the religious forum is the dirty laundry forum. There are a few forums that have gone far beyond that on ATS. I would venture to say those forums are good to stay out of unless you want to get into a virtual fist fight. lol.

Nah...I'm not the fist-fight type. I'm a coward. I prefer guns.

Thanks for telling me it could have been worse. Seriously!

Religion, the study of it, finding common threads in others' beliefs, is one of my greatest passions. However, I almost entirely avoid posting on the subject here. There is a tremendous amount of scorn here, for believers of particular religions, or just believers in general.

I belong to a religious group, but it is not the end all, be all of my spiritual side. I reach far out and find truths everywhere. And here is a great place to find truths, if you can wade through the mud. I have discussed it some in private messages, but not for the public to spit on what I hold as sacred.

a reply to: Willingly

So...I wasn't naked enough?

I never accused you of being anything.

Being more naked than being naked is just impossible. Anybody here who does not like my kind of being naked?

Your interpretation of "naked" may not necessarily mean what I was metaphorically alluding to. I was speaking in general terms and you took it personal.

How can you know better than me what my job is? You're my boss? If so, I would know.

Good lord, take it down a notch. The point I was trying to make is that religious views are often held with the most conviction and it shouldn't be anybody's MO to clean up the pile of dirty laundry they think they see others collecting.

a reply to: Woodcarver

Why do you believe in your version of god? Why should i believe in your version of god?

When you learn how to answer that question, the argument will end.

My version of "god" does not need to be believed. Because what I define as "god" is: The totality of existence as such. And since that simply means EVERYTHING, my god-concept is un-reasonable to even mention, because of the fact that everything already is called everything, no saying "god is everything (or the totality of existence)" is neccessary.

So, if god (or God) is everything, then the god-concept don't make sense. Right? And IF my god-concept does NOT include or imply everything, than I better have a very very very good god-concept that can not be denied by anybody. And that kind of god-concept nobody ever had....but it's not impossible...maybe someone comes up with it anytime soon. Who knows?

That's my stance...so far.

originally posted by: chelsdh
Religion, the study of it, finding common threads in others' beliefs, is one of my greatest passions. However, I almost entirely avoid posting on the subject here. There is a tremendous amount of scorn here, for believers of particular religions, or just believers in general.

I belong to a religious group, but it is not the end all, be all of my spiritual side. I reach far out and find truths everywhere. And here is a great place to find truths, if you can wade through the mud. I have discussed it some in private messages, but not for the public to spit on what I hold as sacred.

But do you hold these ideas sacred for a compelling reason? Can you explain why these ideas are so important for you? As opposed to other people's sacred ideas? This is the crux right here. Ideas that cannot be proven should not be sacred. That is where the argument begins. Your strong belief in something completely subjective. It is an immovable imaginary concept. It places a barrier between fantasy and reality that you are unwilling to cross or even explore. You are more willing to accept an idea that feels good to you rather than explore the world around you and accept what can be proven, and lay aside ideas that have no reason to be believed.

originally posted by: chelsdh
Religion, the study of it, finding common threads in others' beliefs, is one of my greatest passions. However, I almost entirely avoid posting on the subject here. There is a tremendous amount of scorn here, for believers of particular religions, or just believers in general.

I belong to a religious group, but it is not the end all, be all of my spiritual side. I reach far out and find truths everywhere. And here is a great place to find truths, if you can wade through the mud. I have discussed it some in private messages, but not for the public to spit on what I hold as sacred.

That scorn goes in both directions. Some of the nastiest, most hateful comments I've ever read in the religious forums have been made by the "believers".

a reply to: eisegesis

Good lord, take it down a notch. The point I was trying to make is that religious views are often held with the most conviction and it shouldn't be anybody MO to clean up the pile of dirty laundry they think they see other collecting.

Sir, I was just asking! That's my thing!

You're not bossing me, than I'm not bossing you! (That's my rule...)

Language can be such a beast...if not used like a boss. (That's my opinion...)

a reply to: Woodcarver

You are more willing to accept an idea that feels good to you rather than explore the world around you and accept what can be proven, and lay aside ideas that have no reason to be believed.

It's not even so much a matter of laying them aside, as it is being open to discussing other ideas, as well as the holes in the ones they have. For some reason, I still believe it's possible we go on after we leave this body. The problems with believing that are obvious, and I don't mind them being pointed out, nor am I closed to the idea that there may be nothing at all when we die. There's the difference, I guess. I don't mind having my beliefs challenged. I wish more people like you would have challenged them decades ago, and maybe I wouldn't have lived the way I did for so long.

originally posted by: Willingly
a reply to: Woodcarver

Why do you believe in your version of god? Why should i believe in your version of god?

When you learn how to answer that question, the argument will end.

It

My version of "god" does not need to be believed. Because what I define as "god" is: The totality of existence as such. And since that simply means EVERYTHING, my god-concept is un-reasonable to even mention, because the fact that everything already is called everything, no saying "god is everything (or the totality of existence)" is neccessary.

So, if god (or God) is everything, then the god-concept don't make sense. Right? And IF my god-concept does NOT include or imply everything, than I better have a very very very good god-concept that can not be denied by anybody. And that kind of god-concept nobody ever had....but it's not impossible...maybe someone comes up with it anytime soon. Who knows?

That's my stance...so far.

it would certainly be unreasonable to claim that the universe is a god. We already have a really good model for the universe. It holds all of the explanatory power it needs to be able to make very accurate predictions. Adding "it is a god" to that definition, adds nothing to the the description of the universe and does not fix any of the problems we do have.

It is just poetic language used to make you feel better.

Which is the actual reason most people surrender to religious thoughts. It's poetic and it makes them feel better. If we could just be honest about that, therre would also be no argument left to have. But some folks have to argue that their beliefs are real, and that everyone should come around to their way of thinking.

I know not everybody is trying to convert people, but there are enough to make me stand up for reason and evidence.

a reply to: chelsdh

And here is a great place to find truths, if you can wade through the mud. I have discussed it some in private messages, but not for the public to spit on what I hold as sacred.

For me the good thing is: Nobody can spit on my beliefs, because they are immaterial in nature. Because what does exist in reality (species truth) does not need to be believed in. It is self-evident.

And I, myself, do not spit on others beliefs in any way, shape or form. I just question them. I hope that does not hurt. I just wanna know why and what for certain concepts are believed. In case I miss something important I find worthy of believing in myself.

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: Woodcarver

You are more willing to accept an idea that feels good to you rather than explore the world around you and accept what can be proven, and lay aside ideas that have no reason to be believed.

It's not even so much a matter of laying them aside, as it is being open to discussing other ideas, as well as the holes in the ones they have. For some reason, I still believe it's possible we go on after we leave this body. The problems with believing that are obvious, and I don't mind them being pointed out, nor am I closed to the idea that there may be nothing at all when we die. There's the difference, I guess. I don't mind having my beliefs challenged. I wish more people like you would have challenged them decades ago, and maybe I wouldn't have lived the way I did for so long.

Reason and logic are simple. You ask yourself why you believe whatever. If your belief does not stand up to scrutiny, you stop believing it.

Why do you believe that there is an afterlife? Is there a good reason? Or does it just make you feel better?

a reply to: Woodcarver

You assume a lot here.... That I only believe in things that are unproven, that all I find sacred is based on what others have fed me. This, this is why I do not engage in these conversations. I don't judge others for believing differently than I, or not believing at all.

I do not feel that I should have to provide proof for things that I personally believe in. Faith, for me, is not about the hard proof in things. Though, I don't dismiss concrete things. I don't believe in absurd things (in my mind at least).

But you see, you've already been condescending toward my private beliefs.

a reply to: Woodcarver

Why do you believe that there is an afterlife? Is there a good reason? Or does it just make you feel better?

Sometimes I wonder if this place/realm/space/universe we find ourselfs in, is just pre-life but not life itself already. And when we die, we maybe go some place where the real deal is going on, or we come here again, for another ride in mere pre-life.

Therefore I don't even think about the concept of an "after"-life. Because this isn't even LIFE yet. (But that's just what I think sometimes...and I tend to think too much lately anyway...)

a reply to: Klassified

I agree wholeheartedly with you, many people of faith are always right, because their holy books (or the interpretation they abide to) say so. I avoid those people as well. They can't be reasoned with.