Masonic 'Art'.Deciphered?

a reply to: supermilkman

Your link is broken but if that is the one with the goat at the end (again) it has been proven to be a hoax some time ago as it is two different videos spliced together.

originally posted by: supermilkman
a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

So what is your opinion of this video? Includes everything from an oath to secrecy to a coven ritual. And don't tell me its not Freemasonry with that checkered floor showed during the ceremony.

at 6:15 the video changes from what looks like a lodge function to something that has nothing to do with freemasonry, even if the floor is checkered. So yea, I'm telling you that a checkered floor doesn't make something masonic anymore than my kitchen at my old house was masonic.

The guy in the video is an idiot. He has no clue about the structure of Freemasonry which is the key to understanding why this type of thing isn't possible. If you ask questions, we'd be happy to answer, but if you are just going to tell us stuff that you beleive, I'm afraid it's a bit pointless. Most of us here are well aware of how things work, having been Worshipful Masters before. Ksig may have been one more than once. And if belonging to invitation only orders makes you high ranking, he is likely the highest I know of. Augustusmasonicus is in the Grand lodge as well as his local, so that makes him pretty damn important. (as important as you can be in Jersey)

How about you tell us where your interest in freemasonry comes from.


Oh, and when you want to imbed a video, just put the stuff after the v= in the you tube box.
so instead of this "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92WJx9eVUBU" you just need this :"92WJx9eVUBU"

a reply to: network dude

Oh, Jesus, I was right.

a reply to: network dude

Thanks for telling how to embed. Now I know. Still where is the proof that the ritual was unrelated to the first area shown?

And what about the translation? You can even read the captions in its original language. The uniforms definitely look Masonic. And yes checkered floors are pretty common in homes and other facilities but this is like a rectangular portion of the floor with black and white tiles and with cult-like members wearing robes performing a ceremony. Seems too much of a coincidence especially as the Masons are known for the checkered floors.

Even if the second part of the clip is unrelated to the first what do you think about the oath to secrecy? Or are you going to shrug it off simply as a hoax?

Edit: My interest stemmed from seeing the symbol in a video game then later in real life. Lately I've been seeing the actual square and compass symbols in animated movies (Ant Bully) the pyramid and all seeing in tv shows among talking to locals who had relations to the Freemasonry.

If you want my opinion they seem to have power and influence over society. Can be a very dangerous "union" when you have lawyers, police officers, bankers, engineers, doctors, politicians etc all combined working together and having each others back. Can't even imagine the level of exclusivity and abusing of authority that could happen. Sounds like the mafia if you ask me.

a reply to: Anaana
It's not just my opinion. Freemasonry doesn't meet the requirements and characteristics of a cult. I also understand how symbolism meaning can change and morph, and I also study how symbolism means different things to different groups, cultures, etc. You're also assuming though that the application and meaning of the symbols of 18th century Freemasonry is radically different from modern Freemasonry which would be foolish; read William Preston and Thomas Smith-Webb. I would maybe see mid-20th century growth as an indicator of a fad, but I'd say modern membership trends are different from being a fad.

Well, I do qualitative (comparative) and quantitative analysis quite regularly, and to just take a single definition out of context and apply it to an entity is very reckless and would be ridiculed among scholars. You're not taking into account the characteristics, variables, or factors. Cults have self-appointed, authoritarian leaders. Freemasonry doesn't. Cults have some some grand truth that opposes critical thinking. Freemasonry doesn't. Cults require blind devotion. Freemasonry doesn't. Cults suppress property rights and acquire members property. Freemasonry doesn't. Cults interaction with the profane and often isolates its members. Freemasonry doesn't. Cults use deceptive means to recruit new members. Freemasonry doesn't. Cults make it nearly impossible for members to demit or leave the group. Freemasonry doesn't. It would seem to me from this look that 'x' (the independent variables; being characteristics and behaviors of Freemasonry) do not explain in any way y (the dependent variable; being a cult or not). Freemasonry has democratic characteristics that are contrary to the existence of a cult.

A quick side note, once I'm done with my current Graduate program I'm going to run an analysis of polity scores with the appearance/existence of Freemasonry in a given state (country) in a given year (from 1816 onward).

In what way?

You're still making it seem that Freemasonry is centered upon dinner while ritual is secondary.

Well, Freemasonry was never the vessel where monumental scientific breakthroughs were discovered. Freemasons themselves were involved and are still involved in various forms. In the past you saw some Freemason involved with the Royal Society and were on the frontier on scientific advancement. Did Freemasonry cause them to be such? Or were they interested in Freemasonry for other, personal, reasons?

I'll say it slowly...interpretation solely on an outsider's perspective can be very dangerous.

a reply to: supermilkman
A poorly done video and laughable to think that the first scene is connected in any way to the second scene.

a reply to: supermilkman
What ties to the two scenes together? There are no markers that tie the room or individuals together or suggest a relationship. It's not the same room nor is there anything in the room to say it is tied a Masonic Lodge or body of Freemasonry (Scottish Rite in this case). There's also nothing to suggest those individuals are Masons (lacking regalia) or that the individuals in the first scene are in the second scene. And those are not "Masonic uniforms". The "checkered floor" is not solely Masonic. Is the Mosaic pavement used in Freemasonry? Yes. Is every use of the Mosaic pavement Masonic? No.

And yes checkered floors are pretty common in homes and other facilities but this is like a rectangular portion of the floor with black and white tiles and with cult-like members wearing robes performing a ceremony. Seems too much of a coincidence especially as the Masons are known for the checkered floors.

Or a poorly done enactment by anti-Masons who lack an understanding of Masonic ritual and trying to portray us as blood thirsty savages.

Even if the second part of the clip is unrelated to the first what do you think about the oath to secrecy? Or are you going to shrug it off simply as a hoax?

An "oath to secrecy" is also not something done exclusively by Freemasons. Again, it's most likely done by people with a malicious agenda against Freemasonry and most likely targeting people with little to no knowledge of Freemasonry.

Freemasonry is far from the mafia.

originally posted by: supermilkman

originally posted by: network dude
I hate to be "that guy" especially on a conspiracy site, but you had it much closer to right, a while back. Yes, there are real conspiracies, but not every one of them is real, or has truth to it.

Chemtrails are a fantasy made up by charlatans who need to have a gullible audience to promote their lies in order to profit from them. Science has existed for almost 100 years to explain what you see in the sky. The increase in air traffic is the main reason it's even still an issue today.

I don't think its fantasy. I know the contrail explanation and allegedly its usage for agricultural reasons but there is something sketchy about it. Why is that they are dumping them in the cities where there are no farm land? Also what does increased air traffic have to do with the fact that these jets are explicitly dumping chemicals over civilians?

You won't convince me that its vapors or contrails because I've seen the hatch open up and literally unloaded a white powder-like substance. I think it could be ionospheric technology but I worry about the side effects that it has on people when exposed to these elements.

Masonry is exactly what the masons here say it is. A good number of us came from conspiracy back grounds and joined for the main reason of finding the truth. How better to know then to join? Well, we did, and found that not only is it a great organization that helps those in need and the community respectively, but the quality of men you see who are masons is at the pinnacle of humanity. They really are good men, and they really are instrumental in making the world a little better.

I somewhat agree with you. They are not all bad and officially have good ideals. I think many of the conspiracy theories involving them are supposition and speculation. Most conspiracies I take with a grain of salt.

However I do believe all organizations can succumb to corruption and abusing their power. I have a lot of reason to believe that although Freemasonry has done a lot of philanthropy work that they still have their bad apples as well.

May I remind you people like Al Capone have done charity work but also murdered people. The government does nation building yet also bombs and destabilizes countries.

Just because an organization claims good motives doesn't mean they act out on them and you never know what is going behind the scenes until it actually happens.

If you want to know about plumbing, you call a plumber, you don't call a Bank president. If you want to learn about contrails, look to science, that is what explains everything you see, if you want to know about freemasonry, ask a Freemason, or join a lodge.

If you want confirmation bias, go to a conspiracy site, and only listed to those who agree with you.

I try to see all angles to a subject. I've read up on the contrails explanation and I don't buy it. Its more likely a cover-up story/propaganda so that the government can keep getting away with dumping chemicals.

Kind of like how the police has done "reverse stings" by selling drugs to patrons to lock them up yet keep the money to themselves. Or like how we sold weapons to cartel members to track them in Mexico. Yeah, it was all a bold face lie for actual trafficking, not some elaborate sting operation.

Again I don't believe in most conspiracy theories but I find that there is too much evidence and coincidences out there to not give credence to some of them.

Pretty sure you are getting contrails and cloud seeding mixed up. Does the fact that the video you linked to is either wrong about famous 33rd degree Masons or they had no problem posting names without evidence bother you at all?

originally posted by: KSigMason
It's not just my opinion. Freemasonry doesn't meet the requirements and characteristics of a cult.

Then what is it? You say it isn’t a religion, but it relies upon a religious framework. It’s not a secret society, it is a “society with secrets”, so we can assume it is a “society” at least, a society of what though? If the purpose of a system is what it does, what is the “purpose” of Freemasonry, and who does that purpose serve? As I have now repeatedly pointed out, the basis of my understanding of that purpose is the one I quoted from the (archaic?) first degree and, it can be demonstrated, historically, as a matter of records that it did serve that purpose, but does it still do so? If not, why not? If so, how so?

originally posted by: KSigMason
I also understand how symbolism meaning can change and morph, and I also study how symbolism means different things to different groups, cultures, etc.

Then you must be able to understand why some people react in the way that they do to Freemasonry, because those symbols can have much deeper and experiential meanings than the ones ascribed to them by the creators of speculative Freemasonry, based on personal and cultural beliefs and practices. That by setting yourselves apart, as a closed society, you draw attention and generate superstitious association, and by invoking the notion that you have secrets, and can keep secrets, you attract a particular mindset, by critically and appreciatively.

originally posted by: KSigMason
You're also assuming though that the application and meaning of the symbols of 18th century Freemasonry is radically different from modern Freemasonry which would be foolish; read William Preston and Thomas Smith-Webb. I would maybe see mid-20th century growth as an indicator of a fad, but I'd say modern membership trends are different from being a fad.

I was assuming nothing, I am comparing behaviourism based on relational dynamics. Freemasonry is a system within multiple other systems, I look at how the boundaries of those systems interact and the relational dynamics that those interacts create, both in terms of intended outcomes and unintended ones.

originally posted by: KSigMason
Well, I do qualitative (comparative) and quantitative analysis quite regularly, and to just take a single definition out of context and apply it to an entity is very reckless and would be ridiculed among scholars.

I use Systemic Inquiry, it includes both qualitative and quantitative methodologies, permitting a multidisciplinary approach. It’s greatest benefit is that it allows exploration of the unseen by detailed gaps analysis, which when held relational to the flux and flow of ideas, and the dispersal of knowledge helps to measure input-output in relation to a transformational model of society as a whole, both locally, nationally and globally. The term cult, as per definition 5, is where I currently place the role of Freemasonry according to that dynamic. If you have a better term, please do offer it, I am open to suggestion.

originally posted by: KSigMason
You're not taking into account the characteristics, variables, or factors. Cults have self-appointed, authoritarian leaders. Freemasonry doesn't. Cults have some some grand truth that opposes critical thinking. Freemasonry doesn't. Cults require blind devotion. Freemasonry doesn't. Cults suppress property rights and acquire members property. Freemasonry doesn't. Cults interaction with the profane and often isolates its members. Freemasonry doesn't. Cults use deceptive means to recruit new members. Freemasonry doesn't. Cults make it nearly impossible for members to demit or leave the group. Freemasonry doesn't. It would seem to me from this look that 'x' (the independent variables; being characteristics and behaviors of Freemasonry) do not explain in any way y (the dependent variable; being a cult or not). Freemasonry has democratic characteristics that are contrary to the existence of a cult.

Again, see definition 5, and my elucidation above, and please feel free to counter that point by showing me what “impact”, in wider terms, Freemasonry has on the systems in which it is nestled.

originally posted by: KSigMason
A quick side note, once I'm done with my current Graduate program I'm going to run an analysis of polity scores with the appearance/existence of Freemasonry in a given state (country) in a given year (from 1816 onward).

Fascinating, I am sure that your fellow Freemasons will benefit from your endeavour.

originally posted by: KSigMason
You're still making it seem that Freemasonry is centered upon dinner while ritual is secondary.

Okay, so it is ritual punctuated by dinner. And my earlier point was that ritual removed from the practice that it is associated with is dogmatic behaviour, which brings us back round to this being a religion and a belief system. Certainly, via ATS alone and the way in which this discussion is developing, from a Systems point of view, I am leaning towards that view myself now.

In 1953, Hovland, Janis, and Kelley noted that a sense of "rightness" accompanies holding opinions similar to the opinions of others. In 1987, Holtz and Miller reaffirmed this line of thought by noting, "When other people are perceived to hold similar attitudes, one's confidence in the validity of one's own attitude is increased."[2]

en.wikipedia.org...

The principle of least effort is a broad theory that covers diverse fields from evolutionary biology to webpage design. It postulates that animals, people, even well designed machines will naturally choose the path of least resistance or "effort".

en.wikipedia.org...

The star/reward system on ATS makes this particular pattern of behaviouralism observable. Birds of a feather do indeed stick together.

cont'd

originally posted by: KSigMason
Well, Freemasonry was never the vessel where monumental scientific breakthroughs were discovered.

No, but it was a place where the open minded could put aside differences, allowing interactions that created excitation within the systems that were drawn together which resulted in tremendous change. Freemasonry was a great facilitator, which enabled boundaries, that normally would not interact, to do so generating an energy of societal change without causing instability to that system. In the long term, that same energy of purpose, removed from Freemasonry, has momentously led to tremendous damage of the greater systems, the ones that we are all dependent on.

originally posted by: KSigMason
Freemasons themselves were involved and are still involved in various forms. In the past you saw some Freemason involved with the Royal Society and were on the frontier on scientific advancement. Did Freemasonry cause them to be such? Or were they interested in Freemasonry for other, personal, reasons?

This I already covered, I know this. I stated, again repeatedly, personal motivation etc etc etc. I am not the one setting myself apart, you are. And, they were. Why were they? Why are you? The purpose of a system is what it does, what does the “system” of Freemasonry do?

originally posted by: KSigMason
I'll say it slowly...interpretation solely on an outsider's perspective can be very dangerous.

You can say it as slow as you need to Sweetpea, but you are no closer to answering my original retort: I can walk into any church and join the congregation, even participate to a certain degree, without being expected to be initiated prior to experiencing “what goes on”. I do not need to be vetted, tried or tested, I do not need to be initiated. I can walk in off the street and be accepted. Can I say the same about my local lodges? How can I know if I want to join if I don’t know what I am joining? And, how do I know what you think is “good” is what I think is “good”, let alone whether I want to be judged according to your standard of what is “better”? Do I have to be indoctrinated before all that? Or is it simply the case, that likeminded people attract likeminded people to join the club so that they can be likeminded?