religion is too simple...

on this forum and on other forum ive heard many people talk about life being so complex that there had to be a designer/creator. even some scientists say there had to be a creator because life is too complicated to have been merely created by chance alone.

then again this got me thinking, well what's the most obvious creator/designer...it would have to be the christian god. yet for such a complex design for life it doesnt really go in to too much detail about how this complex universe and life was created. it merely states that god said let there be light and there was, let there be birds singing in the trees, let there be man etc. now for such a complex design for life, i can't see how such a simple answer to how this complex life was created can be trusted.

surely if life was so complex that there had to be a god of some sort to design, then also the way we were designed would also have to be complex. yet from religion we see a very simple way of how the universe, humans and every around us was created. this to me obviously means that if there was a creator then we do not know of that creator. thus our gods and religions are mere illusions created by humans for a spiritual need.

like i said before some scientists say that there had to be a designer for life because its too complex for there not to be. then again the scientific explanation of the big bang and everything up untill the present day is pretty complex or sometimes not even understood because it is such a difficult concept to grasp.

so we have to two options...
designer/creator/god, created very complex life, yet in such a simplistic way.
big bang/coincidence/billions of years, created very complex life, and also is explained in a very complex way.

Why is the most obvious creator the Christian God? I dont see how it is more believable than any other creation myth in every other religion.

most obvious to me as to where i come from. the prominant religion being christianity. i wasn't saying most obvious as in the most obvious god out of the world. merely pointing out that would be the first designer/creator in my mind. what about the rest of what i said though...if life is so complex then how can we be designed so simply according to religions??

I see. Well, I dont think the creation of the universe by a deity would translate onto paper too well. Many Christians also think that genesis is not a literal account of the creation of the universe, just a message that conveys God behind it all. I think it is simple because it was meant for simple people, who knew nothing about science. I dont believe in a personal God, just playing devils advocate.

How does matter (acted on in the big bang theory) come into existence without some sort of creator? Have you ever seen matter created out of nothing? I believe the existence of a creator god has more logic behind it than a big bang occuring with material that just somehow exists..

- Attero

Religion is simple because we are a simple existance. You believe what is in your heart. mrwupy always says love and light to all, (i hope i got it right wupy) and no matter what, no matter whos right, even if there is no God, those are words to live by, if nothing else, when you die, you can go knowing that you did what you could to help your fellow man. religion is best at its most simple, do what you can to better your fellow man as well as yourself. Isnt that at the root of most if not all religions?

Originally posted by Attero Auctorita
How does matter (acted on in the big bang theory) come into existence without some sort of creator?

How does a creator come into existence without some sort of creator? If God does not need a creator then why does the universe?

I believe the existence of a creator god has more logic behind it than a big bang occuring with material that just somehow exists..

- Attero

Where do you suppose a creator came from? Remember, if God doesnt need a creator, then why should we assume the universe does? These arguments are more political than anything, because in essence, when we study the universe, it is basically studying "God", that is, the unknown. Im assuming you follow a religion? Otherwise Im not sure why a silly game of linguistics would be a problem.

what if were not supposed to understand this yet? Maybe well know it all after we die. there are many things we are still only starting to understand about our Earth, how when we still have much to learn about that are we supposed to comprehend something much more divine?

It's all about faith (quite a subject in itself!), not engineering. It's an interesting point as to why the details were left out about creation but, it's more instructions about how to live, than proofs of the of the words.

Originally posted by Alec Eiffel
Where do you suppose a creator came from? Remember, if God doesnt need a creator, then why should we assume the universe does? These arguments are more political than anything, because in essence, when we study the universe, it is basically studying "God", that is, the unknown. Im assuming you follow a religion? Otherwise Im not sure why a silly game of linguistics would be a problem.

Well, i'm certainly not opposed to the universe (everything) being god (in fact that's probably the best explanation ex. Spinoza's ideas). God is more than a carpet term for some unknown being - it would be omnipotent - by definition it needs no creator - why is it hard to believe that there is one thing that need not be created. I consider myself a deist (www.deism.com...). If we cannot use linquistics to posit theories than is all our communication false and pointless?

- Attero

Originally posted by Attero Auctorita

Originally posted by Alec Eiffel
Where do you suppose a creator came from? Remember, if God doesnt need a creator, then why should we assume the universe does? These arguments are more political than anything, because in essence, when we study the universe, it is basically studying "God", that is, the unknown. Im assuming you follow a religion? Otherwise Im not sure why a silly game of linguistics would be a problem.

If we cannot use linquistics to posit theories than is all our communication false and pointless?

- Attero

It's just that the word God has many meanings to many different people, and if we are to call the universe God, it is more confusing, and it would be more meaningful to just call it the universe.

Anyway, I don't claim i'm right, this is just how I see existence of a creator (god) through my own reason. And of course there may be flaws with my reasoning but i'm on a path to correct them...

- Attero

Actually, religion can be quite complicated.
Man seems confused enough about it anyway.

If it weren't complicated we would just have the one, wouldn't we?


Take a look at their underlying basis and they all seem to be similar, but it is the law that a belief contains that make it a religion. Those laws are very confusing when you compare religion to religion. The law contained within religion is the reason why we have all of the problems we do today with extremists.

as posted by Alec Eiffel
How does a creator come into existence without some sort of creator?

Alec, this theory of yours is well and fine if one so chooses to limit a/the creator. The question that would seemingly counter your hypothesis would be: How do you know that the creator was created? Your line of thinking would imply that the creator needed a creator to exist and so on and so forth, correct? Perhaps the creator was not created and simply existed prior to anything or everything? That the creator is "Alpha and Omega" to use the term loosely. That the creator always has been and always will be. Perhaps even the universe, one of millions of universes, is simply the creator itself, and that we are all from and apart of the creator. That though we may bodily cease to exist, that we continue to exist within the creator. We are simply a by-product of the creator, having an end but also having another beginning, thus the act of the creator to create continues on, unabated, as has been since the beginning.




seekerof

Originally posted by Seekerof

as posted by Alec Eiffel
How does a creator come into existence without some sort of creator?

Alec, this theory of yours is well and fine if one so chooses to limit a/the creator. The question that would seemingly counter your hypothesis would be: How do you know that the creator was created? Your line of thinking would imply that the creator needed a creator to exist and so on and so forth, correct? Perhaps the creator was not created and simply existed prior to anything or everything? That the creator is "Alpha and Omega" to use the term loosely. That the creator always has been and always will be. Perhaps even the universe, one of millions of universes, is simply the creator itself, and that we are all from and apart of the creator. That though we may bodily cease to exist, that we continue to exist within the creator. We are simply a by-product of the creator, having an end but also having another beginning, thus the act of the creator to create continues on, unabated, as has been since the beginning.

seekerof

I bring it up because it is often said that the universe must have been created. My counter is that, if the creator doesnt need a creator, then why should we assume that universe does? I cant argue with peoples definition of a creator, Im just pointing out a double standard. Let me ask you this question. Do you have any objections to this statement: The universe is God. Thoughts? Just curious, it brings me to my next question, depending on how you answer, of course.

as posted by Alec Eiffel
The universe is God.

The wording of "God" is relative. "God" can take many names and forms to each and every one of us and our own interpretations and understandings.

As for the universe never being created and always having been around, and then correlating it to "the Universe being God" question...... nice logic trap, ain't falling for it.


seekerof

There are no doubts that GOD exists...
What you have to understand is that GOD is behind science...
There is only one GOD ...no matter if you call him Allah,Christ(or father)
...whatever...

Just look around ...is this created by chance???

...yeah ...true....religion is simple for those who can see!

[edit on 11-1-2005 by joejoe]

maybe the chicken/egg analogy can help us understand any one instance in time.

as usefull as such models are, they are only snapshots in our mind.

to truly understand our existance, i think that we should be carefull of "snapshots".

we are constantly feeling and responding to thought. there is no crystaline model which will "stop the presses" and give us enlightenment.

rather, my feeling is that enlightenment is the flow of thought-response-thought..... without any interuption of a "snapshot"

perhaps our creator is within us all times, flowing and moving as we think.

this link really gave me a better insight into our connection with everything, and how this flow of feeling and thought is how the creator exists.

[read the bullets 1-20 and the bottom of the page]


www.360d.com/awaken

why is life so complex? if you pay attention to your life, hasn't everything that happened taught you something valuable. How could this be so if there was no creator, if there was no greater meaning to life what are all these lessons learned for?

Originally posted by Ryanp5555
why is life so complex?

I believe he is reffering to biological life, not philosopical "life".

if you pay attention to your life, hasn't everything that happened taught you something valuable.

Not everything, but I can find value in certain events.

How could this be so if there was no creator,

We have pattern seeking brains, it wants to connect the dots. The real question is, are these connections real or are we just finding patterns where none exist?

if there was no greater meaning to life what are all these lessons learned for?

I'm not absolutely sure. But taken at face value, it appears that they help us survive. I dont know if we simply cease to exist or if we pass on in some other form. The latter sounds nice, but I'm not sure.