Why We Need Democratic Socialism to Fix Our Educational System

a reply to: DBCowboy

Did I suggested softer? No. I have no idea where you got that.

Everyone fails to realize that the highest scoring students in the world are in STATE RUN SCHOOLS.

Yes, government-paid for schools. Like ours.

So, what's wrong? Where can we improve? I don't know, I don't have the time to sift through the data, and I don't have any kids right now to care about either.

All I do know is that parents aren't taking active roles in their children's lives. Americans aren't used to the work ethic and quality of life of the Chinese.

That's a problem. We are competing globally against a society (China) that has very different values and expectations from life. Working longer hours for less money to live in lower-quality housing -- all while being motivated to have their children score higher than any American kid on standardized tests.

That is why we're being left behind -- we are used to big cars, big houses, cheap junk food, mountains of entertainment and ego-gratifying free time.

There is a global tide coming that is going to be evening out the quality of life and resource distribution for everyone ...Americans want to put their head in the sand and hide, but it's coming no matter what.

We can't compete with the expectations, values, and morals we have.

And since the Earth is the only place we have to call home, we're forced to compete. We can't just disappear. The rest of the world isn't going to go away either.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: ketsuko

No, that is not what what I am say, but nice try to twist my words around.

What I am saying is that the rest of the world isn't learning about dinosaurs and cavemen hanging out, creationism, or being taught by parents who don't understand the material themselves.

I know, I know...you don't have to understand something to teach it to someone. I hear that a lot from home school advocates. Whatever.

If we look at countries with the highest test scores, we don't see home schooled children or religious private schools being the reason for the scores.

And you think that's what most religious schools are teaching?

Way to betray your ignorance. I also think it's entirely fair to make that take because your words do seem to put the blame entirely on people who have children in religious schools or who educate at home for falling standards. But the inner cities account for a lot of the problem and you get indignant when I point that out?

How many of our public school educated will be reading things like Socrates or Eratosthenes in high school, learning calculus? Mine will, but he'll be in one of those nasty religious schools ... I'm sure he'll be dragging everyone else down.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: DBCowboy

That's kind of hard when their personal iPhones have been co-opted with work email.

I know that I have to actually turn OFF my work email when I go on vacation, otherweise I'd never get a moment of peace.

That is the price we are paying now in today's capitalist society. We are on call 24/7. If we aren't willing to be, they'll find someone else who is. We are replaceable parts, expected to sell our souls and free time to the titans of industry captaining the our ship.

And you don't think its the same way in those countries you point to, who've had to adopt more capitalistic tendencies now just to stay relevant?

a reply to: MystikMushroom

One of the 12 kids who got a perfect SAT was in a Catholic school.

a reply to: ketsuko

I was educated publicly with all those things. Shakespeare too.

It seems you are ignorant of the public school system as much as you claim I am ignorant of the private, religious school system.

Never mind that my mother has been a public school teacher for 30+ years, and my sister is a public school teacher as well.

Also, never mind that my fiance went to a private religious school and was YEARS behind when she switched to public school in the 1990's. And this was a prestigious fundamental Baptist school as well.

But when you're being groomed for private, non-accredited Christian colleges...I suppose standards aren't quite the same.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: DBCowboy

Did I suggested softer? No. I have no idea where you got that.

Everyone fails to realize that the highest scoring students in the world are in STATE RUN SCHOOLS.

Yes, government-paid for schools. Like ours.

So, what's wrong? Where can we improve? I don't know, I don't have the time to sift through the data, and I don't have any kids right now to care about either.

All I do know is that parents aren't taking active roles in their children's lives. Americans aren't used to the work ethic and quality of life of the Chinese.

That's a problem. We are competing globally against a society (China) that has very different values and expectations from life. Working longer hours for less money to live in lower-quality housing -- all while being motivated to have their children score higher than any American kid on standardized tests.

That is why we're being left behind -- we are used to big cars, big houses, cheap junk food, mountains of entertainment and ego-gratifying free time.

There is a global tide coming that is going to be evening out the quality of life and resource distribution for everyone ...Americans want to put their head in the sand and hide, but it's coming no matter what.

We can't compete with the expectations, values, and morals we have.

And since the Earth is the only place we have to call home, we're forced to compete. We can't just disappear. The rest of the world isn't going to go away either.

Rofl! You are also talking about a country with a poor human rights record. And whats in bold; countries doing better also have these things.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: DBCowboy

That's kind of hard when their personal iPhones have been co-opted with work email.

I know that I have to actually turn OFF my work email when I go on vacation, otherweise I'd never get a moment of peace.

That is the price we are paying now in today's capitalist society. We are on call 24/7. If we aren't willing to be, they'll find someone else who is. We are replaceable parts, expected to sell our souls and free time to the titans of industry captaining the our ship.

I'm hearing excuses for why parents don't have time to help their children.

It's not easy, it's damned hard sometimes.

Really, if you aren't willing to sacrifice for your children and are willing to leave it up to the state to educate them, then you can't really complain with the quality or quantity of education your children get.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: DBCowboy

Did I suggested softer? No. I have no idea where you got that.

Everyone fails to realize that the highest scoring students in the world are in STATE RUN SCHOOLS.

Yes, government-paid for schools. Like ours.

So, what's wrong? Where can we improve? I don't know, I don't have the time to sift through the data, and I don't have any kids right now to care about either.

All I do know is that parents aren't taking active roles in their children's lives. Americans aren't used to the work ethic and quality of life of the Chinese.

That's a problem. We are competing globally against a society (China) that has very different values and expectations from life. Working longer hours for less money to live in lower-quality housing -- all while being motivated to have their children score higher than any American kid on standardized tests.

That is why we're being left behind -- we are used to big cars, big houses, cheap junk food, mountains of entertainment and ego-gratifying free time.

There is a global tide coming that is going to be evening out the quality of life and resource distribution for everyone ...Americans want to put their head in the sand and hide, but it's coming no matter what.

We can't compete with the expectations, values, and morals we have.

And since the Earth is the only place we have to call home, we're forced to compete. We can't just disappear. The rest of the world isn't going to go away either.

In many countries, poor performing students are kicked out. There is no mandate that everyone needs an education. It isn't an apples to apples comparison.

Our public school system works in so much as if the school is located in a wealthy area. Notice, you'll never hear about a failing public school in an middle/upper middle class neighborhood. As I stated before, the main reason is that the school reflects the neighborhood in which is serves.

If the neighborhood is largely made up of ghetto hood rats with single parent homes, drug abuse, gangs, and all that other descriptions that come to define the typical American urban ghetto nowadays, you are going to have a poor performing school. On the other hand, schools located in wealthy areas almost always are high performing. You tend to have two parent households, there is more after school effort put in by the parents, etc.

I live in a upper middle class/wealthy area with a phenomenal public school system. What is interesting is that there is still an achievement gap with many minority and lower income students. You can't blame the schools as it is the same teachers, same money spent, etc. There is obviously a difference in parenting and after school studying that is the culprit.

Until we figure out how to change the cultural differences, I think it will be a challenge to ensure that every public school is high performing. This is why I support school choice / vouchers. I didn't grow up wealthy and had poor public school choices. Fortunately, due to busing designed to desegregate schools, I had an opportunity to attend one of the best public schools in my state. So even though my parents weren't rich, they cared enough to take advantage of the opportunity to get me into a better high school than the one in my community. We have to allow parents who give a damn an option to get their kids into better schools.

a reply to: MystikMushroom

The difference is that parents are involved in these other countries. The kids don't get a trophy for participating.

The US has abdicated responsibility for making sure that the children are learning.

Parents don't check homework, don't get involved with lesson plans.

a reply to: Wardaddy454

See my other reply.

We simply can't complete globally with our set of values and expectations of life.

In the 20th century, other countries had to compete against the USA for a fighting chance. These countries took our models and ways of doing things (even China and South Korea's school systems look and resemble our own in structure) -- and injected them with some kind of education steroids.

America has rested on her laurels for a long, long time while the rest of the world has been fortifying itself to compete and over take us globally.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: MystikMushroom

The difference is that parents are involved in these other countries. The kids don't get a trophy for participating.

The US has abdicated responsibility for making sure that the children are learning.

Parents don't check homework, don't get involved with lesson plans.

Not in wealthier neighborhoods. In the schools I went through (while not really that wealthy) -- they were middle class to mid-upper middle class. We all had lots of parent involvement.

The schools that don't have parental involvement that you always hear people bitching about are the lower-class schools with single parents and different cultural values.

a reply to: MystikMushroom

Not really. I've kept tabs on where the school system has gone with Common Core.

You're lucky to find those things in it anymore. The canon of old, dead white guys is being replaced with a new canon that favors diversity, but a lot of times the lexile scores of the new exemplar texts are far lower meaning the language is less complex. It would be fine if the kids read those texts at that grade level, but they don't and can't because the subject matter of those texts renders them unsuitable for kids of that grade level including in some cases fairly graphic depictions of sex acts or abuse or other subjects that are adult enough they need to be held to the later grades.

I'm not sure why they're being used at all. If the subject matter can't match the grade level, then they ought to be saved for outside reading.

A lot of kids get to their ACT testing unable to get high marks on their essay component, meaning they can no longer compose in English, and this is a common problem across all demographics. This is a consequence of taking the emphasis off of grammar instruction in favor of things like whole language approach. But, as I mentioned above, how will whole language ever work out if you aren't reading very complex language so that you can set eyes on and absorb examples of good writing and vocabulary?

And, of course, NO ONE teaches actual critical thinking or logic as a subject distinct. Kids are expected to figure that out as they go or not. Maybe this explains why so many think that simply substituting emotion in place of sound reasoning and logic is sufficient these days.

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: DBCowboy

Did I suggested softer? No. I have no idea where you got that.

Everyone fails to realize that the highest scoring students in the world are in STATE RUN SCHOOLS.

Yes, government-paid for schools. Like ours.

So, what's wrong? Where can we improve? I don't know, I don't have the time to sift through the data, and I don't have any kids right now to care about either.

All I do know is that parents aren't taking active roles in their children's lives. Americans aren't used to the work ethic and quality of life of the Chinese.

That's a problem. We are competing globally against a society (China) that has very different values and expectations from life. Working longer hours for less money to live in lower-quality housing -- all while being motivated to have their children score higher than any American kid on standardized tests.

That is why we're being left behind -- we are used to big cars, big houses, cheap junk food, mountains of entertainment and ego-gratifying free time.

There is a global tide coming that is going to be evening out the quality of life and resource distribution for everyone ...Americans want to put their head in the sand and hide, but it's coming no matter what.

We can't compete with the expectations, values, and morals we have.

And since the Earth is the only place we have to call home, we're forced to compete. We can't just disappear. The rest of the world isn't going to go away either.

In many countries, poor performing students are kicked out. There is no mandate that everyone needs an education. It isn't an apples to apples comparison.

Our public school system works in so much as if the school is located in a wealthy area. Notice, you'll never hear about a failing public school in an middle/upper middle class neighborhood. As I stated before, the main reason is that the school reflects the neighborhood in which is serves.

If the neighborhood is largely made up of ghetto hood rats with single parent homes, drug abuse, gangs, and all that other descriptions that come to define the typical American urban ghetto nowadays, you are going to have a poor performing school. On the other hand, schools located in wealthy areas almost always are high performing. You tend to have two parent households, there is more after school effort put in by the parents, etc.

I live in a upper middle class/wealthy area with a phenomenal public school system. What is interesting is that there is still an achievement gap with many minority and lower income students. You can't blame the schools as it is the same teachers, same money spent, etc. There is obviously a difference in parenting and after school studying that is the culprit.

Until we figure out how to change the cultural differences, I think it will be a challenge to ensure that every public school is high performing. This is why I support school choice / vouchers. I didn't grow up wealthy and had poor public school choices. Fortunately, due to busing designed to desegregate schools, I had an opportunity to attend one of the best public schools in my state. So even though my parents weren't rich, they cared enough to take advantage of the opportunity to get me into a better high school than the one in my community. We have to allow parents who give a damn an option to get their kids into better schools.

Um...

The reason why schools in poor neighborhoods fail isn't just lack of parent involvement. Many of those suburban kids in fancy town go home to an empty house since both parents work to live such a swanky lifestyle.

Schools are funded by property taxes within districts. More affluent areas have more money available per student due higher property values.

This is one of the major issues that needs to be addressed if we will ever have any kind of education reform.

a reply to: ketsuko

There's more to education that the "core" of common core. That's why it's called a "core" -- there are a lot more things each school district in each county and state includes.

There are also AP or "advanced placement" classes in high school that can earn you college credits. I took some of those.

You get out of the school what you want to get out of it. If you have parents who are worried about rent, food, working 3 jobs, not involved and never impress the importance of education? Yeah, you're going to get crappy students who don't care about school.

When you're 14 and a Freshman and more worried about being shanked by someone or beaten up by a gang member over some money your big brother owes ... you're probably not going to care about your grades. When you can make money quick and easy selling dope after school to feed you and your little sister ... you're probably not going to be studying. When you don't have any positive, educated role models in your life ... you're probably not going to think that getting good grades matters.

When you're young and struggling to survive in low income neighborhoods, spending time on homework is pointless and wasteful. What does any of that get me right NOW? Right NOW I'm hungry, right NOW i'm not safe. Doesn't anyone remember being 14 and how the immediate future was the only thing that mattered? 18 years old seemed like a lifetime away, getting out of the ghetto is something no one ever does.

That's the cycle of values that are being perpetrated in our low-income neighborhoods...fueling the low performing schools that are dragging down our national test scores. There's a lot of hopelessness, despair, stress, and a belief that none of it will get better.

a reply to: hubrisinxs

Well, thanks! But I was lucky to the extent that they started school right about the time Reagan's "Johnny Can't Read" report came about the so-called state of education in the country. So I was determined that I wasn't going to let my kids fall through the cracks! I just tried to use everyday life stuff to teach them how stuff works. They both started school knowing their alphabet and how to read, their numbers and how to count and do simple addition and even division and fractions ("Okay, kids, let's divide that apple into thirds because there's three of us...) For decimals, we used to play "market" so that they could learn how to count out money to pay for things -- and to count the change they receive -- and to generally understand how decimals and money work. Teaching them about sales tax let me help them with percentages. They weren't allowed to go to the store or the mall alone until they could do so. (Again, my daughter hated me for that!). Baking and following a recipe was another great way to teach about fractions -- and she loved that! Just simple stuff, but such important life skills.

In terms of the OP, can you guess what I think the solution is? An engaged and motivated full-time parent for the child's first five years, so that by the time a child starts school they are mentally and emotionally prepared to learn. The parent is the child's first and primary teacher... garbage in, garbage out. But I'm the crazy woman who thinks our public schools should also devote more time to real-life skills, including teaching and preparing our kids for parenthood, and the marketable skills to provide for them. More home economics classes, more shop classes, more computer classes, more budgeting classes... real-life skills.

a reply to: the owlbear

It has nothing to do with money. Many urban areas spend more than $10k-$15k per kid. It has everything to do with parents and cultural differences. As I pointed out, even in my own community lower income and minority (black) students don't do as well even though they are attending the same school as the wealthier kids.

In general, middle and upper class parents spend more time with their kids working on academics, their children are exposed to reading, math, language, etc more consistently at a young age.

a reply to: DisinfoCom

How do children in private schools fair? It would be nice I see some
Sort of comparison.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: ketsuko

There's more to education that the "core" of common core. That's why it's called a "core" -- there are a lot more things each school district in each county and state includes.

There are also AP or "advanced placement" classes in high school that can earn you college credits. I took some of those.

You get out of the school what you want to get out of it. If you have parents who are worried about rent, food, working 3 jobs, not involved and never impress the importance of education? Yeah, you're going to get crappy students who don't care about school.

When you're 14 and a Freshman and more worried about being shanked by someone or beaten up by a gang member over some money your big brother owes ... you're probably not going to care about your grades. When you can make money quick and easy selling dope after school to feed you and your little sister ... you're probably not going to be studying. When you don't have any positive, educated role models in your life ... you're probably not going to think that getting good grades matters.

When you're young and struggling to survive in low income neighborhoods, spending time on homework is pointless and wasteful. What does any of that get me right NOW? Right NOW I'm hungry, right NOW i'm not safe. Doesn't anyone remember being 14 and how the immediate future was the only thing that mattered? 18 years old seemed like a lifetime away, getting out of the ghetto is something no one ever does.

That's the cycle of values that are being perpetrated in our low-income neighborhoods...fueling the low performing schools that are dragging down our national test scores. There's a lot of hopelessness, despair, stress, and a belief that none of it will get better.

But all the things you describe are cultural and social dysfunctional issues. I don't disagree that those things affect the quality of schooling, but at what point do we stop making excuses? Being poor has never meant you had to be in a gang. I know plenty of poor people who didn't belong to gangs. I know plenty of people who had to work multiple jobs, but they still managed to do well in school.

Poor asians come here by the boat load and yet they are mopping the floor with everyone educationally. Packed into houses, working 15 hour days in nail salons, dry cleaners, yet some how they manage to blow everyone out the water educationally. Within a generation, they go from nail tech to surgeons.

originally posted by: Edumakated
a reply to: the owlbear

It has nothing to do with money. Many urban areas spend more than $10k-$15k per kid. It has everything to do with parents and cultural differences. As I pointed out, even in my own community lower income and minority (black) students don't do as well even though they are attending the same school as the wealthier kids.

In general, middle and upper class parents spend more time with their kids working on academics, their children are exposed to reading, math, language, etc more consistently at a young age.

My sister taught in the roughest, poorest school in the city here. We're talking "Dangerous Minds" here, and she echo'ed the same sentiment.

It's a huge cultural thing, along with a set of values. She said a lot of the time she couldn't even get in touch with a kids parents.

There needs to be a cultural shift in the values for lower income people. I have a sneaking suspicion that the people who have the biggest impact on cultural values have been reinforcing "ghetto life" on the poor to keep them there.

a reply to: DisinfoCom

This is a terrible idea.

If you privatize education and make it results driven it will be much more successful than putting the Government in charge of anything. The Government is the WORST provider of goods and services you can possibly choose. Just awful.