NEWS: Canada: Suspected sleeper agent passed lie detector test

Adil Charkaoui, a 31 year old Moroccan with permanent residency (landed immigrant) status in Canada has been held on what is known as a "security-certificate," since May 2003. Today it was confirmed that he has passed a November '04 polygraph test in which he denied any links to terrorists. Suspects can be held by the federal government without charge, and eventually deported - without knowing what information or evidence it has. Lawyers are not permitted to cross-examine government representatives of behalf of their clients either.



Although I'm all for protecting the country, I just don't like the idea of being held without charge or information about what evidence is held against you...smacks of Guantanamo Bay...with better treatment.

I wonder how hard it is to fool a polygraph... As a result of public protests I saw him interviewed on t.v. a while ago and he didn't speak English very well so it was hard to tell if he was sincere (he's French-speaking and lives in Quebec).

It will be interesting to see what happens. I think his wife is Canadian-born.

Related News Links:
ottawa.cbc.ca
www.csis-scrs.gc.ca


[edit on 10-1-2005 by Banshee]

Canada holds without charge and can deport without defense its own citizens?

The case is definitly similar to Jose Padilla's case, however, I don't think he will get deported.

I disagree with the use of security certificates.
If they've got real reasons for holding him then they should let the reasons be known. To him, at least.
I recall hearing them say that it would jeopardize security if information were to be released - I don't see how if they let him know why he's being held.

I don't think his wife is Canadian, AlwaysLearning.

.....If you believe that you are allahs freedomfighter rather than a terrorist (just share the modus operandi), you can honestly fool a lie-detector when asked if you support terroism, however a good polygraph specialist will ask questions about peoples values and believes fiirst to filter out ambigious answers...

Like: "Do you consider Al-Qaeda to be a terrorist organisation ?"


[edit on 10-1-2005 by Countermeasures]

Originally posted by Nygdan
Canada holds without charge and can deport without defense its own citizens?

The case is definitly similar to Jose Padilla's case, however, I don't think he will get deported.

This guy wasnt a CITIZEN, he was a legal immigrant given residency status, he didnt have citizenship (ie he didnt have a canadian passport).

I do agree tho that these laws stink, the UK has them as well, but they only apply to non citizens in both countries. Secret evidence? What political party passed these laws?!

Oh, and its trivially easy to pass lie detector tests with false answers, which is why lie detector test results arent submissable as evidence in pretty much all sane countries. To pass a test, you need to raise your bodies stress levels when being asked the control questions and any questions you answer correctly. When a question comes up that you want to falsly answer, you drop the artificial stress so the real stress of lying takes over.

How do you do this? Easy. Press down with your toes to stress the body, lift off to release the stress. Works about 70% of the time.

A legal resident with residency status is a permanent resident anywhere Though more limited (as far as travel and government jobs) is the same thing.

Looks like some people here need to take "polygraph can't be trusted' 101 class. No wonder U.S. courtrooms no longer allow polygraph tests.

Surf

Originally posted by parrhesia

I don't think his wife is Canadian, AlwaysLearning.

I think you're right, I was thinking of the other guy, Harkat. His wife, Sophie (Larmarche) is Quebecoise. Oops.

Yes, you're right.

I wonder if he's been , or will be given a polygraph test. I think he's been held for 2 years now and still no information. It's crazy


The Secret Trial Five:

Mohammad Mahjoub

Mahmoud Jaballah

Hassan Almrei

Mohamed Harkat

Adil Charkaoui

Wonder how hight that number will go.

Originally posted by RichardPrice

I do agree tho that these laws stink, the UK has them as well, but they only apply to non citizens in both countries. Secret evidence? What political party passed these laws?!

Bill C-36 The Anti-Terrorism Act was passed in response to 9/11 by the then majority Liberal government under Jean Chretien. I'm not sure what's the deal with security certificates and how long they've been in use but will check further. But this is the info on the Act in case you're interested: canada.justice.gc.ca...


Wow, you know a lot about faking out polygraphs...not from personal experience I hope

Originally posted by RichardPrice
Oh, and its trivially easy to pass lie detector tests with false answers, which is why lie detector test results arent submissable as evidence in pretty much all sane countries. To pass a test, you need to raise your bodies stress levels when being asked the control questions and any questions you answer correctly. When a question comes up that you want to falsly answer, you drop the artificial stress so the real stress of lying takes over.

How do you do this? Easy. Press down with your toes to stress the body, lift off to release the stress. Works about 70% of the time.

Or you can calm your whole body down so that the polygraph doesn't recognize you as your body's stress level going up.

If your body's stress level keeps going up, the guys giving the test are boud to get smart.

Surf

Polygraph tests are not reliable, that's why they are not real evidence in the courts anymore, but a lot of people don't know this so even though they are not admissible as evidence, some liars, i mean lawyers will mention this to the jurors, expecting some of them not to be very knowledgeable about the fallacies of poligraph tests. Taking a polygraph test is also about luck, in what mood the interviewer is in, and wether or not he wants you to pass the test. The interviewer makes a choice at the end of the test, wether or not he thinks you lied, but the test is not really that reliable, and it is certainly not a lie detector, even though it was given that name.

We have had serial killers, and other criminals with no remorse pass several of these tests, if you believe you can pass it and you can control your body functions, you will pass it. The poligraph is now mostly used by police departments, the FBI, the CIA and other government agencies mostly to hire new employees, and it is used as a psychological weapon more than enything else, to see if you can tough it out.

[edit on 11-1-2005 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by surfup
Or you can calm your whole body down so that the polygraph doesn't recognize you as your body's stress level going up.

If your body's stress level keeps going up, the guys giving the test are boud to get smart.

Surf

Its easier to artificially stress your body than maintain an artificial calm. Your stress levels go up from the baseline whenever you are asked a question anyway, its the polyographers job to determine the false answers by how much the stress levels increase (since answering a question wrongly on purpose raises stress more than answering it truthfully - it will show up on the test as a higher stress peak).

Since the testers are expecting to see an increase in stress levels during each answer, their job is to set a baseline based on your own stress levels - hence the control questions they ask (answer this one correctly, answer this one falsely etc etc). All you have to do is raise the stress levels on the correct control answers, and raise them further on the false control answers, and your stress baseline now accounts for any false answers you give in the test.

More info released about Charkaoui today...am submitting it under title Canada's Spy agency releases some info about Charkaoui.

Was told it didn't warrant a separate post:

www.thestar.com.../Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1105397412288&call_pageid=970599119419

Not looking good for Charkaoui...he'll probably be deported sooner rather than later. And his life will be in danger...whether he's guilty or not.

Article

Charkaoui's freedom is severely restricted, and he still has to answer to charges that he is a sleeper agent, for which he was held in prison under a "national security certificate" since May 2003.

Originally posted by AlwaysLearning
I'm not sure what's the deal with security certificates and how long they've been in use but will check further.

Have you had any luck finding out when the security certificates started? I know they've been in effect at least one year prior to 9-11, because Mahoud was captured June 2000.

I just wonder what else they can do that we have no clue about.....

I wonder what else they have on the man that merit the tittle of "sleeping agent"

And occurs is people trained enough can fool lie detectors test.

Originally posted by marg6043
I wonder what else they have on the man that merit the tittle of "sleeping agent"

And occurs is people trained enough can fool lie detectors test.

It will be interesting to hear what they have, or think they have. Even if he isn't convicted of anything, he can be deported at the end of the day.

A lot of people supported him though... Understanding better as I do now how cases can be fabricated I'm more skeptical about what government tells me.

Originally posted by Duzey

Have you had any luck finding out when the security certificates started? I know they've been in effect at least one year prior to 9-11, because Mahoud was captured June 2000.

I just wonder what else they can do that we have no clue about.....

Found this information on the subject - from what I saw security certificates have been in use since 1991.

Certificates Under The Immigration and Refugee Protection Act (IRPA)