UK Referendum 23 June 2016 - Will it be an EU BREXIT or Not?

originally posted by: eletheia

originally posted by: ForteanOrg

Because that would violate human rights. Human rights are quite specifically described in this document.

You don't get it do you?? There is nothing in there, that any laws and decent

society doesn't advocate. It idealistic concept at best and it still doesn't answer

my question ....


A murderer, a rapist, a terrorist has taken away the *Human Rights* of another


which means that there can be no such thing as human rights as only one is getting

theirs.

# Everyone has the right to life liberty and security of person

Everyone???? The raped??? The blown up??? The beheaded??? How do you intend

they get their *Human Rights*

No one should be subjected to torture, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment

Tell that to those responsible for enslaving the captured men and women,

raping and beheading .... Oh sorry you cant do that they have *Human Rights*


Your having a laugh!!

Agree with your comments.
For me when you behave in such an inhuman manner and commit such monstrous atrocities then you have given up your right to rights!! When a dog goes mad or crazy with rabies we do the humane thing and put them down. No one shouts and screams about dog rights! So if we put down a mad dog atrocity committing human then whats the difference. And don't anyone be pedantic and say one is a dog and another is a human. If you behave like a crazy animal that monstrously murders innocent folk then there should be no rights. Only for the victims and the innocent, upon which such inhumane people pray!

I repeat what I said earlier and that is that if we remain in the EU then we will be faced with additional terrorists who managed to get papers as refugees in EU member states. They will use these as a means of entering the UK to do the same as they have in Brussels and Paris. Yes we already have home grown terrorists and sympathisers on watch list. Do we want to add more to the list (the ones we know or find out about - and what if we dont?).

Worth a read:-

www.msn.com...

Why doesn't the conspiracy (you know, that one) just admit what will happen, cause they already plan everything out and control the future anyway?

Instead of pointlessly arguing about it, when surely we all realise (and hopefully are not actually part of - as then why in the hells would you pretend to not know?) like everything else, it's decided in advance regardless of what you do. Not saying that is ok- it isn't ok at all. But it is how things are.

The Bernie thread thing - isn't that kind of thing an example of what I mean here? No? Yes?

a reply to: RP2SticksOfDynamite

Agreed it is a potential consideration for independence from the EU, but as I've stated previously, my intentions to vote 'leave' are inspired mainly from ideological reasons of sovereignty of state and smaller government.
All other considerations are born of that, and under the control of a sovereign UK.
Same as all the other sovereign nations in the world outside of the EU.

originally posted by: RP2SticksOfDynamite
Worth a read:-

www.msn.com...

I have a question to ask those of you all on in the "exit" camp regarding the threat of terror in relation to our EU status if I may.

Is there any indication that the threat of potential terrorism in the UK will subside with an EU exit?

I am pretty sure that our foreign policy is ours to chose and not something we are compelled by the EU to undertake.

Was it not our own government that decided to join the bombing raids on Syria?

How will leaving the EU make the threat of terrorism by fanatics be reduced simply by leaving an economic union.

Surely we will still continue to fight against ISIS? Our western values will remain the same and so will our religion as a nation.

Has someone actually said that the potential for terrorist attacks will be reduced by an EU exit.

Genuine question here as I am not sure how it will change this particular issue.

originally posted by: nonspecific
I have a question to ask those of you all on in the "exit" camp regarding the threat of terror in relation to our EU status if I may.

Why ask all of us as if people wanting to vote leave are using it as an important supporting argument?
The only person I've seen in this thread focusing on it is the OP and you two have had handbags at dawn about it.
Please keep that question where it so obviously belongs in this thread, between you and the OP alone.

Terrorism is not an important reason for the average 'leave' voter, and aside from this thread with you and the OP, I haven't heard any 'leave' voter focus on that as an issue.
I think while you focus on that it is a distraction at best from the arguments of sovereignty, smaller government, control of immigration on a needs based system, control over agricultural policy and fishing rights etc etc.

Banging on about the terrorism red-herring just because you and the OP fell out is as I assert, a deflection at best.

a reply to: grainofsand

Certainly not a continuation of what has passed.

I am aware of your reasons for wanting to leave and although I disagree respect that.

I ask as I keep an eye on a lot of extreme right wing groups who use this as fodder for an "exit" vote and the OP brought it up.

I have also seen a few other members talking about the threat of terror in relation to an EU exit and wanted to know what peoples opinions were.

So I asked.


As I have said before I respect anyone's right to vote either way and am myself leaning more toward an exit vote.

I am happy to accept the outcome either way as long as it is based on rational thought and not media hyped propaganda.

I

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: RP2SticksOfDynamite

Agreed it is a potential consideration for independence from the EU, but as I've stated previously, my intentions to vote 'leave' are inspired mainly from ideological reasons of sovereignty of state and smaller government.
All other considerations are born of that, and under the control of a sovereign UK.
Same as all the other sovereign nations in the world outside of the EU.

Agree that the safety from terrorist attacks is only one of as many as 10 issues. And I have already highlighted many others, sovereignty being one of them. Others include jobs, school places, NHS queues, the money subscribed to the EU. Law. Free trade outside EU without EU permission and so on. Also housing and reducing risk of going down with the EU etc

a reply to: nonspecific

Meh, extreme right-wing groups often debate complete rubbish.
I occasionally troll and get myself banned from a certain white supremacist forum. They're #ing nuts as far as I see it.
It is undeniable though that a sovereign UK has the ability to shut access to anyone it deems appropriate at a whim.
While the UK is an EU member it has limited controls over who it allows from the EU.

See the crazy contrast, a doctor from India must be free of convictions, and needed by the UK (as they are, but think how many British doctors we could train with £8 Billion a year), and able to speak English, while an unskilled Hungarian labourer with multiple convictions for say violent hate crime against Muslims, can just catch a bus to the UK with no questions or restrictions.
I don't think such a situation is beneficial to the UK, perhaps you do?

It does appear to be true that our powers are limited from inside the EU. Another reason to take back full control of our own destiny in light of recent economic events in the EU. There will never be an equilibrium that will work thus the risk will always remain high!

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: nonspecific

Meh, extreme right-wing groups often debate complete rubbish.
I occasionally troll and get myself banned from a certain white supremacist forum. They're #ing nuts as far as I see it.
It is undeniable though that a sovereign UK has the ability to shut access to anyone it deems appropriate at a whim.
While the UK is an EU member it has limited controls over who it allows from the EU.

See the crazy contrast, a doctor from India must be free of convictions, and needed by the UK (as they are, but think how many British doctors we could train with £8 Billion a year), while an unskilled Hungarian labourer with multiple convictions for say violent hate crime against Muslims, can just catch a bus to the UK with no questions or restrictions.
I don't think such a situation is beneficial to the UK, perhaps you do?

Concur with your points!

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: nonspecific

Meh, extreme right-wing groups often debate complete rubbish.
I occasionally troll and get myself banned from a certain white supremacist forum. They're #ing nuts as far as I see it.
It is undeniable though that a sovereign UK has the ability to shut access to anyone it deems appropriate at a whim.
While the UK is an EU member it has limited controls over who it allows from the EU.

See the crazy contrast, a doctor from India must be free of convictions, and needed by the UK (as they are, but think how many British doctors we could train with £8 Billion a year), while an unskilled Hungarian labourer with multiple convictions for say violent hate crime against Muslims, can just catch a bus to the UK with no questions or restrictions.
I don't think such a situation is beneficial to the UK, perhaps you do?

Not the point I was looking to make.

The issue I have is that I only ever see things from my own perspective.

The vast majority of "Exit" voters I come across are basing their decision on absolute tosh.

I see 2 things getting brought up time and time again, EU membership funds and immigration.

It kind of wears you down when you hear the same old things over and over and over again repeated rabbit fashion by people that have no real understanding of what is actually going on.

So I come to ATS and ask what people think that maybe have a little more understanding to try and find out what people that do not just read the Sun think and why they choose to want to leave the EU.

I ask questions in the hope that I get answers and then intend to use those answers to form an opinion.

I am not looking for a fight or to convince anyone to do anything.

I have no issue with your opinion of unregulated immigration.

Uneducated opinions however are a different story.

a reply to: nonspecific

Terrorism is not a factor in my decision to vote. In one of RP2SticksOfDynamite's previous links, a reliable source (CIA or FBI) stated that European nations fall very short of the UK's commitment in pursuing fake passports. This is also reflected in an article in the Telegraph today which shows a distinct lack of information sharing between EU nations.

Britain not told about terror fears surrounding Brussels bomber

This suggests to me that any further integration with the EU will undermine our current security.

Although it is not a factor for me personally, it would would be foolish to rule it out completely as the potential is there.

originally posted by: nonspecific
Uneducated opinions however are a different story.

Hmm, I've got to be honest here and say that if the uneducated opinions happen to be from people who are voting 'leave' then I'll happily see them vote.
I'm also happy that Murdoch's press is influencing such people. I'd be happy with the help of Satan, such is my conviction that in the long term Britain will prosper, as the rest of the world outside of the EU can.

Fact is that some of the 'uneducated opinions' are factually correct, just the uneducated person doesn't understand exactly why.

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: nonspecific
Uneducated opinions however are a different story.

Hmm, I've got to be honest here and say that if the uneducated opinions happen to be from people who are voting 'leave' then I'll happily see them vote.
I'm also happy that Murdoch's press is influencing such people. I'd be happy with the help of Satan, such is my conviction that in the long term Britain will prosper, as the rest of the world outside of the EU can.

Fact is that some of the 'uneducated opinions' are factually correct, just the uneducated person doesn't understand exactly why.

Honest as ever and I cannot argue your logic on that one. I think...

What about all the uneducated "in" votes though?

To look for more neutral ground do you not think that there is a lack of factual based information being put out there for those less likely to inform themselves?

Some kind of government pamphlet delivered through the post for example or an unbiased BBC programme?

originally posted by: eletheia
You don't get it do you?? There is nothing in there, that any laws and decent society doesn't advocate. It idealistic concept at best and it still doesn't answer my question ....

Indeed, there is nothing in there that a decent society does not advocate. So, if the UK is a decent society it will uphold these essential human rights.

A murderer, a rapist, a terrorist has taken away the *Human Rights* of another

I get that, I got that the first time. It's not like you're writing in Chinese

which means that there can be no such thing as human rights as only one is getting theirs.

Of course there can be human rights then. It's simple: a crime has been commited - one against human rights. So, we hunt the guy down, arrest him and take him to Court. He will have a fair trial and be judged. He will not be beaten, not be killed, not be raped by us. Regarless what he did to other people's rights, WE will uphold his. He may be punished and that may involve taking away some of his rights (for example: if you put him in jail, he can not move freely, can not vote anymore etc.) - but all other rights will remain in place for him. Regardless if he is the devil himself.

raping and beheading .... Oh sorry you cant do that they have *Human Rights*

Indeed. And we will hunt you down, arrrest you, bring you before a recognised international tribunal and judge you.

It's the only way.

originally posted by: Morrad
a reply to: nonspecific

Terrorism is not a factor in my decision to vote. In one of RP2SticksOfDynamite's previous links, a reliable source (CIA or FBI) stated that European nations fall very short of the UK's commitment in pursuing fake passports. This is also reflected in an article in the Telegraph today which shows a distinct lack of information sharing between EU nations.

Britain not told about terror fears surrounding Brussels bomber

This suggests to me that any further integration with the EU will undermine our current security.

Although it is not a factor for me personally, it would would be foolish to rule it out completely as the potential is there.

I don't have any specific factors that are prompting me to wish to vote to leave. There are many factors that add up to "how can we stay" for me. I see so many many benefits to leaving and the right to determine our own destiny just seems right. The amount of subscription paid to the EU could be used for more productive purposes. The sheer number of immigrants is worrying. Nobody speaks English anymore. Everywhere I go all I hear is foreign EU languages spoken. I thing the amount of issues is suffice to wish to leave!

a reply to: MrsNonSpecific

Every time the word vulnerability is mentioned I have to pause and assess if it actually relates to the true meaning of the word vulnerability or if it is just referring to the progressive liberal buzz phrase of 'human vulnerability' in the sense that everyone needs protecting because they are not capable of protecting themselves.

These women are not victims. They aberrantly romanticise about terrorists who cut people's head off. Some of them have even taken their children with them. A few realise that life in ISIL is very different from their distorted perception and return home where they face prosecution, often receiving custodial sentences. If the progressive liberals had their way, these woman would not be prosecuted. They would be called victims and offered counselling at the tax payers expense.

originally posted by: nonspecific
To look for more neutral ground do you not think that there is a lack of factual based information being put out there for those less likely to inform themselves?

Doesn't pretty much everyone have Google in their pocket these days?
Both camps have official websites, there is no excuse to be uninformed any more.

Some kind of government pamphlet delivered through the post for example or an unbiased BBC programme?

Lol, you are taking the piss aren't you? lol

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: nonspecific
To look for more neutral ground do you not think that there is a lack of factual based information being put out there for those less likely to inform themselves?

Doesn't pretty much everyone have Google in their pocket these days?
Both camps have official websites, there is no excuse to be uninformed any more.

Some kind of government pamphlet delivered through the post for example or an unbiased BBC programme?

Lol, you are taking the piss aren't you? lol

I am a bit surprised a pamphlet has not yet been delivered from our Dave yet.

I bet we get one soon.