Odessa, the deliberate transfere of funds and Nazis to Venezuela actually a U.S. operation??

I am in the middle of a 'novel' by W.E.B. Griffin and William E. Butterworth IV entitled "The Assassination Option".

For those unfamiliar with Griffin's work, he is a much beloved author of immense skill that runs many decades. From my limited knowledge, he has always been accurate in historical events that surround his novels.

In this novel, he puts forth Operation Ost. Originating in the OSS and continued into the CIA that was designed to protect Nazis and their families from Soviet retribution and assassination who had turned to assist the U.S. fully. That includes infilteration into the U.S. and incursions into the Manhatten Project by Soviet spys.

I'm not half way through the novel and was, well, shocked at the implications.

Many questions are raised. Is this true? If true then is the 'Odessa' claims an invention by the U.S. or a concurrent operation that actually occurred?

Yet, why create an 'Odessa' legend that puts attention on South America when that attention would be the last thing a 'protection program' would want?

Personally, I have met at least one individual of German extraction out of Venezuela in the 70s and he clammed up when I broached the subject...LOL.

Clarification would be appreciated....

a reply to: nwtrucker

ODESSA did happen.

Here's some food for thought: Rat-lines

Are you talking about the work of fiction by Fredrick Forsyth called the Odessa File? ODESSA was an organisation that was comprised of ex Nazi's who wanted to destroy Israel. It's a good book.

So, is the legend you refer to actually a work of fiction?

a reply to: nwtrucker

I'll save you time it's not historically accurate its based off another work of fiction called the Odessa files. Historically speaking the US brought scientists into the US the other Nazis where on their own. Many his with the German populations in venezuela .

a reply to: deckdel

That was my understanding and belief of it.

Then the question
becomes is Operation Ost factual? If it is, it raises other questions, such as, why Venezuela? One would 'assume' the country used for this operation would have to approve and support it.

Did that approval by Venezuela occur due to previous acceptance of Odessa? A means to cover Odessa from the U.S.?


This question might be covered later in the novel, but if high ranking Nazis 'turned' to the U.S., a reasonable assumption as the alternative would have been Soviet internment and those consequences, wouldn't those Nazis be aware of 'Odessa' and inform them of it's existence?


I'm getting a headache....LOL

a reply to: paraphi

Yes, I've read that novel decades ago and haven't particularly considered it as part of or the source of the Odessa legend.

a reply to: dragonridr

Yes. The German scientists
import is well known. The Russians had their share, as well.

Griffin has nibbled at the Venezuela connection with Germans for years now in various novels. There is plenty of evidence via Nazi hunters of Venezuelan involvement....which raises another question, again IF 'Ost' is factual, would the U.S. have to also 'hide' Nazis that turned to the U.S. from Israel as well as the Soviets?


Your 'historically factual' is the area of uncertainty for me. The 'accepted' historically factual or is there more to it all?


It seems a major point on the history forum. No getting away from it....LOL

There was a real Operation Paperclip. It was intended to get NAZI scientists on our side, away from the Russians.

However, at the end of WW2 every intelligence organization had communists in its leadership. The coms had spies and policy positions in the West, both governmental up to the White House and non-governmtnal, like the trade unions, various publications and in academe. For example we sent back to USSR White Russian refugees who had escaped after losing the Russian Civil War back in 1921.

Since post WW2 the spy industry was rife with USSR operatives everywhere, Operation Paperclip was probably stalled, spun off in useless directions, used to start programs that hurt US Foreign Policy and freedom in general, and probably snatched the best of the NAZIs to Russia. The communists took over the Anti NAZI resistance in the Balkans ( executed the non-communist leadership ), and in France. Anything could have branched off from Operation Paperclip because the Russian means of development was mostly from espionage.

The Russians had not only spies in the OSS, but agents making policy in the White House.

Odessa might be literally true or an illustration of bits and pieces various Soviet or Soviet friendly American Establishment Operations.

|its my Understanding that ODESSA is actually the support network for ex Nazis after the war.....
I was of the impression That Nazi loot has been distributed to all kinds of expat German immigrants all over the world,
who then invested in the country they ended up in....thus gaining large inroads into modern commerce and governments of several countries....
How extensive it all goes I don't really know but fear the absolute worst...
But then Hitlers troops used 30% Ford trucks......
Krupp and IG Farben survived the war intact....

a reply to: bandersnatch

It seems apparent that some organization existed, whether named 'Odessa' or not.

The question is did this Operation Ost exist? I have yet to see or even hear of any 'inventions' by Griffin in any of his works that spans decades. Add in the 50 year rule on a lot of the old 'secrets' and the fact that Griffin is real old and perhaps this scenario he puts forth is accurate and not previously public knowledge....

a reply to: nwtrucker

The program which gave prominant NAZI's safe haven, new identitys and even made Werner Von Braun into the hero of the space race after reinventing the man and whitewashing his part in the abuse of forced labourers was called Operation Paper Clip and many of those it sheltered were actual war criminal's in there own right.

Now there was another operation made by the US at the very end of the war in which a former Spy Master of the third Reich, one Reinhardt Gehlen,
en.wikipedia.org...
whom was a probable war criminal was recruited by the US, he is also colloquially called the father of the cold war because of his probable inflation of the Soviet boogyman to his new Masters in the US, through Gehlen a network of former NAZI spy's and contact's was restored to active status (if it had ever not been active) and worked under the unnofficial blessing of the US intelligence agency's, this was a part of the very REAL NAZI underground which helped many vile criminal's escape to south american and to the middle east.

Also at the end of the war in it's closing day's as the Allies raced into Germany a convoy of submarines loaded with unknown cargo and many individuals most probably including many war criminal's headed out to sea, some say to south america and other's claim the NAZI's had maintained an operation since at least 1940 after placing a territorial claim in queen maud's land on the continent of Antarctica back in 1938 or perhaps there operation was under the Ice of that continent, leaving out the UFO claim's as late as 1947 US naval Admiral Byrd set off on an operation codenamed hijump, this operation was classified though it was ostensibly called a scientific expedition.

For an expedition it had some pretty strange support,
Over 40 ships including destroyers, an air craft carrier, a submarine, combat personel and even a helicopter.
www.stevequayle.com...
Why
Well the NAZI's may have had more than one facility if this is true
www.bibliotecapleyades.net...
And if it is then perhaps they had taken there nuclear scientists and other project's there under the auspices of die hard fanatical SS and NAZI die hard's intent on completing there own research and making a return to establish a fourth reich or resurrect there beloved third reich, just maybe Admiral Byrd's expedition was to check that this was not the case and was intended to destroy this threat if it existed, of course it has fallen into UFO lore as well due to claim's he encountered NAZI or otherwise air craft that attacked the task force sinking one destroyer and damaging other ships and that these air craft were far ahead of anything he had seen maybe even similar to UFO's.

But the truth is that there were NAZI submarines that made a last secret voyage at the end of the war with passengers, that a vast amount of gold vanished and remains unaccounted for and that even after the war the US tollerated and sheltered NAZI criminal's and integrated the former NAZI spy service into there own rank's in order to spy on the Russians in east Germany and beyond, also that it is rumoured that this cancer then spread until it actually turned the tables taking over large part's of the US spy and intelligence service and turning it to there own agenda after this infiltration was first tollerated and then accepted.

The best source to check out is Simeon Weisenthal but many of this document's have since vanished or have never been made public as he stepped on a lot of toes in his justified quest for justice and had to weather death threats even from western intelligence agencys (I wonder why).

Some food for thought.
https://__._/gifiles/attach/49/49783_.pdf
myth.greyfalcon.us...
the-wanderling.com...
www.sharkhunters.com...
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...

These are just the tip of the ice berg.
www.telegraph.co.uk...
www.dailymail.co.uk...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

youtu.be...

en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...
www.washingtonpost.com...

Now while the majority of these Germanic people are PROBABLY not even remotely NAZI they most definitely proved desirable destination's and potential safe places for many of the war criminals whom sought to escape justice as well as potentially sources of new blood to continue there diseased NAZI legacy, some of the enclaves in Argentina, Chile and other south american nation's are extremely secretive with armed guard's whom will shoot any trespasser dead and barbed wire and metal fences to seperate them from there host nation, some are religious cult's though including one in mexico which make's the Amish look positively modern which is also a polygamous cult.

a reply to: LABTECH767


Interesting, to say the least. I assume you've read Griffin's book on this?

If not, Reinhardt Gehlen is named in the novel as the same person as your information. It is slightly different than Weisenthal's version in that Griffin's claims the Soviets had already well established spies in the U.S. and were even aware of the Manhattan Project even to the degree that almost every spy, military and gov't agency in the U.S., right to the highest levels, had been infiltrated.

Griffin's version implied a definite separation from German counter intelligence and the SS. That German counter-intelligence actually had a 'relationship' with Mossad when interests coincided. I've seen comments where the Nazis even negotiated with Jewish leaders in Poland for the emigration of Polish Jews to Palestine and were successful is reaching accord in quotas permitted to leave Poland.

I squirm a bit when he/you implies that this might be the source of the cold war and my first reaction to it that this 'might' be a deliberate misdirect. I've felt the cold war was as much a British concoction as any one else's. Churchill's hate of anything Soviet is well documented and Mossad/the Zionists had a working relationship with British elite in the formation of Israel as an unstable ME has been their Modus Operandi since the break-up of the Ottoman Empire. To wit having two different groups on either side of the canal would likely keep any one group from controlling the vital passage of Suez Canal for British Empire business movement.( My speculation)

This project that was aimed at Gehlen's protection also hasn't seen much 'exposure' either which supports at least the belief that the other U.S. agencies might be subverted with moles as well.

P.S. My daughter gave me a novel a ways back by Allen Furst entitled Dark Star. It covers Zionist, Soviet, French and English intelligence activities prior to WWII. It, apparently, is based on a debrief of a defecting Soviet spy. It paints an amazing picture of the complexity of European and Soviet games in that arena. An amazing read considering the spy genre was far less covered leading up to WWII. It lends to my 'belief' that the Soviets were, in fact, more than capable of having fully infiltrated the U.S.. The U.S., on the other hand was not even close to the same level.

On overlap between some Odessa-like operation, which seems to have been proven, and the Gehlen collaboration seems reasonable.

I'm just a casual fan and have no insights or connections whatsoever to any of this. I did get the impression that U.S. counter-intelligence was no where near the level of European and Soviet level of competence. An almost laughable naivety when compare to the almost centuries long efforts of European versions, especially prior to WWII.

As this might have put Mossad and U.S. efforts at odds-protecting war criminals that Mossad wanted for trial and execution- it might be a factor in the U.S.'s abstaining in the vote in the U.N. regarding creating an Israeli state.(?) I full y trust none of the above groups and likely we will never know the whole truth,,,,,,,

a reply to: nwtrucker

You may be correct, Chrurchill was furious with the Americans for the deal that was made at Yalta behind his back between Roosavelt and Stalin when they decided to hand Poland to the Russians but helpless to do anything about it, nevertheless the Soviet's had a great deal of supplies provided to them by the north atlantic convoy's which sailed the arctic waters to take desperatly needed munition's, weapons and supply's to them and which many British and allied sailors lost there lives doing while we ourselves were in dire strait's as the wolf pack's tried to strangle Britain and it is estimated we had only two week's of food supplies at most since Britain can not self sustain since the industrial revolution despite intensive farming and need's to import vast amounts of food.

This subject of Churchill makes me think of other's story's.

The Australians have never forgiven Churchill for his disastrous Gallipoli campaign in the first world war and he was widely regarded a great war time leader but a terrible peace time leader and of course he is the source of the phrase IRON CURTAIN.

The whole division of the formerly Ottomon and other Arabic territory's after the first world was also possibly in part because of a fear of a resurgent islamic empire, the ottoman's had become decadent and ineffectual in there old age but still there had been almost constant war with europe and muslim raid's massacring non muslim europeans mostly Greeks up to the early part of the twentieth century but I would suggest that it was probably more about the imperial powers of Britain, France and the other European powers dividing it up for there own reason's and placing territorial claim's and not so altruistic as to prevent these attack's, also it made the suez trade route far safer with the Ottoman's out of the way while Egypt had been traded between France and Britain in there earlier disagreement's so YES you have hit the nail squarely on the head there as far as I am concerned.

I have not read that book yet but shall if I get the time it sound's very intriguing.

I suppose that before the war the US did not really need a powerful intelligence service outside of the states as at that time the US was more inward looking while the British and French had huge networks of spy's, informant's and operatives throughout there empire's and of course the Soviet union was under the management of Stalin after he forced the dying Lennin to name him successor and stalin created one of the most massive, if not the most massive networks of internal secret police ever to have existed up to that point, of course it was more like the salem witch trials with innocent people sent to gulag's for saying the wrong thing or rubbing the wrong official up the wrong way.

Indeed in the 30's Nazi German observors visited the Russian's to see how there death squad's and gulag's worked with the blessing of both government's as Hitler was outwardly on friendly term's with Stalin at that point and Stalin had no idea of Hitlers true plan for the east.

On these visit's these German observors watched how the Russian's would machine gun dissidents into trenches often in the deep forrest's of russia and how they had made them dig there own graves then used other prisoners to fill the trenches back in and when they invaded Russia after turning on there erstwhile ally they then used some Soviet mass murder sites for there own propeganda notably in Poland.

That bring's me to a terrible betrayal by the Allies just after the war, the Russian's whom were now running all of Poland (The country the British and French had actually gone to war to free and so it can be argued we lost the war and never won it as Russia took the prize) asked for us to return there polish citizen's and of course we did, many wanted to return but some did not suspecting there likely fate and these were men whom had lain there lives on the line time and again fighting the NAZI's.

Once they were back accross the border they were taken away and shot by the Soviet's whom saw these trained and skilled Polish fighters as a threat to there control of that country.

Another interesting thread.
nsarchive.gwu.edu...

The British turned most of the german field agent's dropped into england as well but of course these were relatively low ranking members and would have purposely had little internal knowledge of the Abwehr and other german intelligence operations, I know very little about Zionist activity's but it sound's interesting and given the probable link to the Rothschild's (Red Shield Bauer family) whom have used better intelligence than any state ever had since at least the time of the napoleonic war's I would not be too surprised, perhaps because of there international interests at the time while most national security agency's are more mercenary and concerned with national security while the Bauer family (Rothschild) were more interesting in money and indeed may have engineered many conflicts and controlled others' in the past, they bankrupted nations then bought there stock and bound them by perpetual debt agreement's, all historical fact.

a reply to: LABTECH767

In Griffin's version, he claims over 200 suicides by Free Poles ordered to return to Poland after the war. Further, he claims Ike was pissed about it and put a stop to the forced repatriation of Free Polish fighters despite State Department objections.

I'm still middling through his book but highly recommend the Dark Star novel, an eye opening, stunning view of just how big and complex-as well as internally competing- the Russian espionage system was in the thirties.

Dark star, in the day, named the Zionists as the 'group with no name'.
The goal singularly being the establishment of an Israeli state. (Not an evil goal, methinks.) As far as the Rothschilds go, I don't know what part they played within the 'group' or if their 'activities' were/are separate from the overall Israeli movement or not.

Even Roman Catholic churches took 'donations' from known criminal types....God's will....

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
There was a real Operation Paperclip. It was intended to get NAZI scientists on our side, away from the Russians.

Since post WW2 the spy industry was rife with USSR operatives everywhere, Operation Paperclip was probably stalled, spun off in useless directions, used to start programs that hurt US Foreign Policy and freedom in general, and probably snatched the best of the NAZIs to Russia.

That wasn't quite how it happened with Project Paperclip.

The Nazis were experimenting with biological warfare in Auschwitz and Sachsenhausen concentration camps. They were injecting people in the camps with different viruses, not just the Jews, but also Russian POWs held at Sachsenhausen.

When the Russians came in, they captured some of the SS doctors involved in biological warfare experiments at Sachsenhausen concentration camp, which fell behind the Iron Curtain under Russian control.

Some of the SS doctors involved in biological warfare were captured by the British, and some were offered citizenship in the United States in exchange for information about their biological warfare experiments under Project Paperclip.

The rest of the SS doctors involved in biological warfare experiments fled to Africa or more specifically, former German colonies in Africa, such as Ghana, Togoland, Cameroon, and the former larger South Africa which used to encompass Rhodesia, Namibia, Swaziland and Lesotho. Only a few of them were recaptured. Sadly, many of them assumed new identities and worked for Bayer in South Africa.

Some of the SS doctors escaped to Venezuela and Brazil.

Out of all the Nazi SS doctors involved in biological and chemical warfare, less than 5% were criminally prosecuted. The rest the Russians captured or the British and Americans wheeled and dealed to get their knowledge.

The rest of the escaped SS doctors worked for Bayer, post WWII, in Ghana, Togo, Cameroon and South Africa, especially under Dr. Malan's and Dr. Verwoerd's administrations in South Africa.

a reply to: nwtrucker
I'll check the book you mentioned, thanks. Joseph Farrell has several intriguing books about the Nazis. He also had a lot of mindblowing takes about the Nazis, here's a few on top of my head:

1. Maybe not only Venezuela, if there was a Nazi headquarters in South America after WW2, it's more likely Juan Peron's Argentina. Paraguay, Brazil, Uruguay, Chile, and Bolivia were also mentioned as ratlines, but what others fail to mention was the obvious- Germany's first post-war Chancellor Konrad Adenauer and his cabinet.

2. Gehlen's embedded Nazi spies inside the Soviet Union was absorbed by the OSS and in 1947, the CIA through Dulles. The Nazi funds (and/or loot) more likely end up in the usual suspects- the big American and Western banks, well most of it anyway. Maybe even the Vatican banks?

3. President Roosevelt shared US atomic bomb secrets to the Soviet Union.

4. Eight months before the US dropped the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs, there could be a few evidence that the Nazis successfully tested their version of the bomb on the Baltic Sea island of Rügen. It gets more interesting because the enhanced uranium fuels used in the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs could be from the Germans, not to mention a few of the bomb components. Did Emperor Hirohito knew that or only a few members of the Japanese intelligence?

5. The Nazi connection to JFK assassination and yes... the UFOs, EU, ISIS or ISIL and CERN.