The 666 Beast and how to count in Hebrew

originally posted by: flammadraco

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim

originally posted by: flammadraco
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

666 = www = The Internet!!

No, thats three vavs is 18, not 666

6 = V/W

You assume it means vavs, I'll assume it means www. No biggy!

Edit - To add, www = World, Wide, Web so would be three separate W's or three separate 6's such as 666.

Yes, but the ancient Hebrews, Greeks and Romans didn't use positional or place-value notation, they used a system of alphabetical numerals (gematria or isosephy) listed or noted in various ways. The system I showed in the OP is semi-positional and genuine, and actually lets you do some quite remarkable calculations given its archaic nature and its lack of a number zero. No stress, but www written in Hebrew is ווו, which, if they had been using a positional notation would read 666, but they didn't so ווו would simply be 18 or 6+6+6. In modern Hebrew and just about every language around, Arabic base-10 decimals are used with place-value notation. This system was introduced to Europe by the Muslim Moors in Spain a little more than 1000 years ago.

a reply to: 5StarOracle

Trying to bully me?

Trying to Bully you? How old are you?

Tell me how my belief system is dying then...

The Right Wing Christian nut jobs are causing more and more people to leave the church and return to god. Most sane folks are distancing themselves from their churches as they don't want to be tarnished with the same brush as the fundamentalist. I now know more people that believe in God but not man made religion "Deism"

Your perceived attacks from me are nothing more than you're portraying the same old same old "I'm being Persecuted" routine, as seen so many times here on ATS. Its pathetic

You are too ill equipped for a personal attack to phase me...

Baloney!! lol

You have taken my responses to you as a personal attack, and thus if I was really trying to attack you, you'd probably end up as an emotional wreck!

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Agree to disagree - So many different ideas about the mark of the beast and what 666 really means, in the same way as so many different interpretations about what the bible says.

I'd say let it go, you seem like a smart person, don't waste time on a book that was written by shepherds that believed the world was flat and the sun was magic and try to make sense about it 2000 years later! it's a waste of your time!

a reply to: flammadraco

Because you say so huh?sounds like a personal opinion to me...
It's rather obvious that you were attempting to silence me by an attempt to belittle me...
You sure seem to belive the opinions you hold to be factual...
I can assure you that can only be truly perceived as delusional...
Which is further evidenced by your self proclaimed ability to wreck me emotionally...
Once more for you as you are thick and suffering from a grandiose ideal of your mental superiority...
You can't hurt my feelings but the level of stupid you portray may move me to anger...

a reply to: 5StarOracle

You sure seem to belive the opinions you hold to be factual...

Factual - Show me "Factual" evidence that your belief system is real. Not faith but facts. When you have found something, come back and let me know!!

I can assure you that can only be truly perceived as delusional...

Delusional?? You seem to like that word but it has no bearing on any of my posts, however....... you are showing classic signs in this thread of "Delusions of Grandeur", you are also suffering from an extreme classic case of "Persecution" all of which are classic signs of schizophrenia which Is very common in those people that class themselves as religious!

Call us at 1-866-531-2600. 24/7 live answer and confidential.

Once more for you as you are thick and suffering from a grandiose ideal of your mental superiority

If you believe in a book written by shepherds over 2000 years ago as fact, then yes i am "Mentally Superior" to you!

originally posted by: flammadraco
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Agree to disagree - So many different ideas about the mark of the beast and what 666 really means, in the same way as so many different interpretations about what the bible says.

I'd say let it go, you seem like a smart person, don't waste time on a book that was written by shepherds that believed the world was flat and the sun was magic and try to make sense about it 2000 years later! it's a waste of your time!

Fair enough, call it counter-productive, archaic or primitive, I'd say you'd be right in all three. But I sort of like the savages and ancient religious books, they can teach us many things. Like I demonstrate here it can serve to show how things were done thousands of years ago, but to live like a slave of some demiurge that turns lungs and breath into spirits and ghosts (Gr. pneuma, Heb. Ruach)-- oh well. In a thousand years from now they will claim we were sun worshippers and what's top notch science today will be ridiculed as primitive, and for all we know Newton and Einstein will be worshipped by the religious as some kind of demiurges revealing the Spark of Heaven.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

I would hope in thousands of years from now, the only thing they would think was primitive about us today, was the fact that Science flew us to the moon and Religion flew us into buildings!!

I doubt very much there would be such thing as a religion in millennia from now!

a reply to: flammadraco
Pffft
Funny how you know that number...
lol
Now I know I was right about you anyway...
You say to call "us" at that number... I'm curious how many of you are there? and which one of you will you be?

a reply to: 5StarOracle

Pfffft - Funny how the number was for Canadian Mental Health Charity and I'm in the UK!

A Wise man once said, "Better to remain silent and appear stupid than to speak and remove all doubt"

a reply to: flammadraco

So you are going to shut up now then?

originally posted by: flammadraco
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

I would hope in thousands of years from now, the only thing they would think was primitive about us today, was the fact that Science flew us to the moon and Religion flew us into buildings!!

Well said

I doubt very much there would be such thing as a religion in millennia from now!

Agreed, but so did Thoth lament thousands of years ago. And stupidity will never get old. It's what makes this world go 'round.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Again, see Solomon Gandz and accuse the most prominent expert on ancient Hebrew mathematics and astronomy instead of me. You cannot be more mistaken.

Thanks for the opportunity for accusation, which I have to decline.
Solomon Gandz however is by no means the most prominent expert on this subject, nor would he need to be in order to correctly understand and teach this type of geometry.

If I am mistaken, I still don't see how: please explain.

originally posted by: wisvol
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Again, see Solomon Gandz and accuse the most prominent expert on ancient Hebrew mathematics and astronomy instead of me. You cannot be more mistaken.

Thanks for the opportunity for accusation, which I have to decline.
Solomon Gandz however is by no means the most prominent expert on this subject, nor would he need to be in order to correctly understand and teach this type of geometry.

Solomon Gandz is or rather was a highly acclaimed expert on the subject of ancient Hebrew mathematics, although his field was Historical Science. As Gandz, and any other sensible scientist within this field would agree— Gematria was widely used all over the known world around when Revelation was written, and was the dominating numerical system in use since the time of the Assyrians, and the Jews (and the Greeks) acquired this way of counting from the Babylonians. Hebrew Gematria and Greek Isosephy (basically the same thing, only using different values for different letters in different languages) would be replaced, or rather parallelled— by Roman numerals which is in the form I=1, V=5, X=10, L=50, C=100, D=500, M=1000 and so on. The first six Roman numerals, which was also the most common denominations for money and currency-- also equals 666 ==> I + V + X + L + C + D = DCLXVI = 666. When the Moors introduced the positional notation system in around 800 AD Spain (and with their Arab numerals and the decimal base-10 system)— we arrived with the numerical system still being in use today.

If I am mistaken, I still don't see how: please explain.

You wrote:

originally posted by: wisvol
This isn't how to count in Hebrew.

I may not have got it entirely right, I hold that possibility open, for I see the system of Texin (the use of apostrophes) between gematria numerals to add or do other operations, is somewhat more complicated than '' simply meaning +, but the numbers in the OP are genuine enough. Any way you guys put it, Greek words 1: Theriou (The Beast's), 2: Therion (The Beast) and 3: Tarsou (from Tarsus or «Tarsian») adds up to 616 (1) and 666 (2,3) when you write (transliterate) them with Hebrew letters.

Here is the Wikipedia page about Hebrew numerals, and as you see, it follows the same system as used in the OP:

==> en.wikipedia.org...

For numerical values of letters, and how sequences of letters may be summing up to words, a great starter's resource is the book of formation of Pr. Akiva.

Which would be relevant, had it not been for the fact that Rabbi Akiva didn't write much himself, much less wrote anything about Kabbalah, and the book you refer to, the Sefer Yetzirah, would remain unwritten for another 1200 years and uses the Arabic base-10 system with ten base numerals in the shape of 10 sefiroth (same word as in the English word cipher and in German Ziffer, or Norwegian siffer means numeral or digit). So to say R. Akiva wrote the Book of Formation would be like saying Jesus wrote the US Constitution. So, other than being extensively quoted in the Babylonian (Hillel's) Talmud, his written corpus is non-existing, he is quoted, but as far as we know he didn't actually write anything at all, and Sefer Yetzirah (Book of Formation) wasn't written down until around 1300 AD, and only in primitive shape compared with what we have today, so Akiva hardly wrote anything concerning the Etz ha-Chayim and Kabbalah, or numbers and math equations. At all. His efforts were mostly put into the canon and ordering of the Hebrew OT, the Tannakh, and also Talmud through his own take on Talmudian midrash.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

I salute your response, and wish to add:

the book you refer to, the Sefer Yetzirah, would remain unwritten for another 1200 years

Evidence to the contrary includes copies of this book freely consultable to this day.
Contemporary copies are available and mostly pristine.

Furthermore, transliteration implies the same result translation does due to alphabetical variations becoming a source of arithmetic discrepancy: the author of the book of the seven seals whom you mention gives the example of the Greek language.

Most importantly, just as seven is both six and one, five and two, three and four, six hundred and sixty six has many more variants, and this is why I said what I said: this type of geometry when applied to Greek should be based on the Greek alphabet, because apples and oranges.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

One problem, it was probably written in Koine greek on the island of Patmos just as the title say's, the Revelation of St John of Patmos, were it is believed in long held tradition that St John the Apostle was exiled in his latter day's and lived as a hermit in a cave, however it could have also been another John whom was a devout christian and Hermit monk's go right back in Orthodox tradition.
www.greeka.com...

So the numerology linking it to Hebrew which presupposes that the Hebrew script and numeral system were used is probably not right, by the time of christ the greek language which was also used by the Romans to administer the palastine including Judea was well established throughout the region though the day to day lives of the people outside of the greek and later roman administritive city's were actually held using the derivative Arameic language which is believed christ himself spoke and which the oldest christian catachysm is still held in, that of the Syriac Orthodoxy the church founded by the OTHER apostles and descended from first century Jew's whom were followers of Jesus.

If it had been written originally in hebrew then the threats and seals on the book (Anyone that takes the least of these words away I shall take away there name from the book's of life AND Anyone that add's to these word's of this book I Shall add the curses torment's written within it) would seem to prohibit the loss of such an original version, indeed despite the like's of teh Islamic States murderous rampage against Christian's and there attack's on the Oldest surviving Christian site's in order to erase Christian history they have failed utterly because this information was kept in revered transcript's that did not differ from the mainstream version except in translation and those trasncripts were written in Ancient GREEK.

a reply to: wisvol

The Bahir which is one of the absolute oldest written sources of Kabbalah (I own it) is believed to have been written by 1st c. R. Nehuniah ben HaKana. It was first published in book shape around 1176 and circulated among a select few in document shape (p.ix in the Introduction) and was first printed in Amsterdam in the mid 17th century. It is the first known source for the Etz Ha-Chayim described as a composition of 10 numbers, 22 letters like in Sefer Yetzirah. I see Sefer Yetzirah as a sort of shorthand notes skimmed off of the Bahir. The Bahir is the real, complete deal. It includes everything written in Sefer Yetzirah and 10 times more. While Sefer Yetzirah is a few hour's lectures of the subject of the Tree of Life, ha-Bahir would be the whole curriculum on Kabbalah (until the Zohar came about that is). They have it on Amazon I think, the version I have went into print in 1979. The Hebrew text which is also included, seems to be using numbers like in the OP, but quantified slightly differently.

600 60 and 6 which is the notation ordering of 666 used in most Greek documents, would be written in the order of (read from right to left) ת''ר ס ו in Hebrew, and if you treat these numbers as letters forming a word (i.e. lacking the wisdom needed to interpret these letters as numbers and solve basic math) and the person would say the word out loud, it would sound exactly like Gr. Tarsou (from Tarsus, like our prophet Saulus «st. Paul» Paulus). Also if you were a Revelation copyist and you'd written 616 (like in the Ephraemi uncial) in your now lost early Hebrew version of the Apocalypse, it would read תריו and that sounds identical to Theriou in Greek, which is genitive of Gr. Therion which is the word used for Beast. Interestingly, if you add a nun to complete the Greek word Therion, only in Hebrew, you would have תריונ which adds up to 666. Like I said, John reveals «st. Paul» as the false prophet and prototype of the high priest of the «Babylon» church, and a handservant of the World Empire, Rome, the Beast— and he serves it as an elegant math puzzle revealing a kind of wordplay that can't possibly be arbitrary to the exegesis of the Apocalypse of st. John of Patmos. This θηρίον - תריונ synchronicity is intended, and to me is proof Revelation was originally written in Hebrew, which would also explain why all the Greek manuscripts are so riddled with typos, syntactical and grammatical errors and well, rabbi st. John of Patmos was a scribe and all his teachings would have been in Hebrew, so why would he write his major work in unskilled Greek?

This is my favorite 666 story

Solomon was the second generation. David was the first. As Solomon squandered his spiritual heritage he entered into self he spared himself no pleasure. He built cities, married foreign women, and imported peacocks. He also maintained a large federal bureaucracy. He had in his harem 665 women of the first rank, princesses, and 335 concubines

Solomon in self absorption pursued his Frantic Search for Happiness in Phallic Reversionism.1 He denied himself no sexual pleasure. Now, Solomon, the descendant of David and Bathshebah, was probably a very handsome hunk. David is described as beautiful, or handsome (1 Samuel 17:42), which is very rare for a man; and Bathshebah, who at age 17 or 18 lured David into adultery, was good-looking (2 Samuel 11:2). Thus, Solomon, was probably a very handsome man, albeit a wild child like David. Solomon squandered his inherited good-looks and spiritual heritage on worldly pleasures.

Song of Solomon

In Phallic Reversionism, he destroyed all hope of ever finding his Right Woman. Contentment in the love of a woman eluded him. He forever sought the ultimate love relationship of his Right Woman

The devil's woman # 666

The Shulamite Woman : She was a young virgin, probably about 16 years old, whom Solomon found when he was out in the country touring his vineyards.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

I see Sefer Yetzirah as a sort of shorthand notes skimmed off of the Bahir.

Interesting
That explains our difference of understanding.
Spheres are another part of geometry, a distinct group from the letters. This is what the French nobility you got your Sefer Yetzirah from (indirectly) call "ineffable".

a reply to: 5StarOracle

It's rather obvious that you were attempting to silence me by an attempt to belittle me...

We have yet to hear (read) you say (write) something worthy of silencing.

originally posted by: wisvol
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

I see Sefer Yetzirah as a sort of shorthand notes skimmed off of the Bahir.

Interesting
That explains our difference of understanding.
Spheres are another part of geometry, a distinct group from the letters. This is what the French nobility you got your Sefer Yetzirah from (indirectly) call "ineffable".

Or as our friend Pythagoras would say; «There is music in the spacing of the spheres...» In antiquity, Music was seen as the highest, most sacred form of knowledge. There are seven («pairs», eight with the octave) notes in the Sheminit (hence the name «Eighth») musical scale referred to in Psalms, and there are 12 («elementals») notes in the chromatic scale. Three of the («Mother») notes in the basic octave are two minor falls and one major lift (the «sad» A minor) or two major lifts and one minor fall (the «happy» C major). Why we have ordered the notes in this way is a mystery, and Pythagoras was the One to explain it. There is no coincidence that the chamber tone A1 since antiquity (and even earlier in India) was standardised at 432 Hz (3 x 144), until a certain Austrian, famous for burning up Europe and Asia a couple of generations ago— changed it to 440 Hz for easier modern calculations. And truth be told, if you tune a piano to perfect equal temperament, you will have a couple of bad notes, so there are elaborate tuning tricks to avoid this seemingly irrational nature of the equal temperament scale, but since music has a, hrm, ineffable (!) sort of physical calculus in its own nature (what goes up must come down— in order to make waves), moving about the gasses of an atmosphere according to a fractional 4D matrix, this is perhaps not as difficult to understand as the order of primes, calculus as a whole or Euclidean geometry set aside, this stuff requires autism to some extent for fully comprehension.