giving money to beggars

Please dissect and argue against the following proposition, where I argue that giving money to beggars increases unemployment. This is a hypothetical argument for the sake of debate.

You can give $10 to a beggar in exchange for him polishing your shoes. He then goes to buy food for $10 and eats. If you give the beggar $10 without him polishing your shoes he also goes to buy food for $10.

We have two cases, case A and B.

A: You give the beggar $10, the beggar pays $10 to the grocery store, the beggar eats.

B: You give $10 to the beggar, the beggar polishes you shoes, the beggar pays $10 to the grocery store, the beggar eats.

In both cases you become $10 poorer, $10 goes to the grocery store and the beggar eats. Since it's the same in both cases we rule that out.

In case A you have to go to a shoemaker to get your shoes polished for $10.

Then you have payed $20 in case A and $10 in case B. You can't say that because the money you give the beggar enters the market again it doesn't make any difference, that it's just shuffling the cards, because if you only have $10 those can't both go to the grocery store and the shoemaker. Society has been deprived of the job opportunity worth $10 when you give money to the beggar without demanding any good or service in return.

You are confusing charity with a financial transaction.

If you give money to a beggar then that is simply a gift, with no expectation of how it will be spent.

Getting uptight about it is pointless, much better give your tenner to a homeless charity if you are that way inclined.

it's doesn't help the problem to me. giving monies. if anything it makes it worst.

originally posted by: reddragon2015
it's doesn't help the problem to me. giving monies. if anything it makes it worst.

And what problem is that?

a reply to: giraffe3000
As Sprocket points out, "You are confusing charity with a financial transaction. "

The powers that be are all to happy for us to interpret this reality in terms of the financial system that they control.
I try NOT to play by their rules, so I give the cat on the street a buck or two and shine my own shoes.

I don't see your point. I just gave $5 to a beggar who didn't need shoes because he was an old man in a wheel chair. I would have given him $10 if I had it. I did have $100 but I was too selfish to part with it, when there is a beggar on every corner these days. I know that many of them are not legitimate and make more money than I do, but I also know that there are some people in serious need. Now, how many jobs did I destroy?

My hope for you is that you are never the one holding the cup.


????

In all fairness to you, I would have responded differently if you had used a different example.

You can buy yourself a shoe polish kit for $10 (or less I don't remember it's been so long since I bought mine) and polish your own shoes hundreds of times.

Seriously it's not rocket surgery and it takes 5 minutes.

originally posted by: watchitburn
You can buy yourself a shoe polish kit for $10 (or less I don't remember it's been so long since I bought mine) and polish your own shoes hundreds of times.

Seriously it's not rocket surgery and it takes 5 minutes.

Takes a bit longer if you do it properly, but it is therapeutic.

a reply to: SprocketUK

I'm in the Marine Corps. I know a thing or two about polishing shoes.

If it takes more than 5 minutes you're not being efficient.

a reply to: watchitburn

Are you asking why beggers do not have jobs?
Well ...here in my country the average income of a bummy begger is the same as...well...an average income.

About 30000 euro's a year.

That's enough to not want another job....
If your not greedy and live in my country a bummy bum begger has a 30 hour a week job with that.

Not bad huh?

Why are you so concerned about this ? To give someone who is down and out $10 to buy something to eat? It is called helping another person out.Period. I spend more than that at Starbucks. Daily. And yes , I do help out every chance I get.

a reply to: giraffe3000

Just think, if you're in the "upper" 53% of wage earners, you actually started out with about $12.66 in earnings before the feds got their hooks into just the amount they take to subsidize that beggar's life with free medical, housing subsidization, HUD, food stamps, and various other net-paying taxpayer paid programs.

a reply to: giraffe3000

C: You give the shoemaker $10.00 to polish your shoes and the shoemaker gives $10.00 to the beggar.

Your shoes are polished, you've only spent $10.00 and society is preserved.

Everyone wins.

When it comes to individual actions, it doesn't bother me at all if people choose to freely give their money to someone else. I just have a problem with people donating my money without my consent. If I gave someone ten bucks and they spend it somewhere else, they're spending their money because it becomes theirs when I voluntarily give it to them. If it is taken from me without my consent, it is stolen money. You cannot blame me for what is done with money I didn't give up voluntarily and you cannot blame me for what is done with my money after it leaves my hands and someone else chooses what to do with it without my knowledge. If I give ten bucks to a homeless guy because I think he's gonna buy a sandwich with it and he buys a cheap knife and stabs someone, is that my fault? If it was, it would be just as much my fault if I buy something from a store, the store pays one of their employees with my money and that employee commits a crime.

It all gets a bit ridiculous at some point to dissect such things.

I give money to beggars all the time. It's not my place to judge what they do with the money.

"There but for the grace of God go I"

That's just a lot of math for my brain to take in at this time.

I don't give money to beggars....lot's of scammers where I'm from.

originally posted by: giraffe3000
Please dissect and argue against the following proposition, where I argue that giving money to beggars increases unemployment. This is a hypothetical argument for the sake of debate.

You can give $10 to a beggar in exchange for him polishing your shoes. He then goes to buy food for $10 and eats. If you give the beggar $10 without him polishing your shoes he also goes to buy food for $10.

We have two cases, case A and B.

A: You give the beggar $10, the beggar pays $10 to the grocery store, the beggar eats.

B: You give $10 to the beggar, the beggar polishes you shoes, the beggar pays $10 to the grocery store, the beggar eats.

In both cases you become $10 poorer, $10 goes to the grocery store and the beggar eats. Since it's the same in both cases we rule that out.

In case A you have to go to a shoemaker to get your shoes polished for $10.

Then you have payed $20 in case A and $10 in case B. You can't say that because the money you give the beggar enters the market again it doesn't make any difference, that it's just shuffling the cards, because if you only have $10 those can't both go to the grocery store and the shoemaker. Society has been deprived of the job opportunity worth $10 when you give money to the beggar without demanding any good or service in return.

Society puts itself through the depravity of job opportunity with denial of seeing all movements & positions a human is capable of performing as a job.

The begger has to associate with people they don't really want to. They have to get up and get motivated to take the plunge to approach a stranger, or stand there with a sign with eyes of stranger's on them. They are subjected to the most diverse human conciousness thought forms being flung at them by the people that go by them. Resentment, rage, disgust, fear, lust, satisfaction, ridicule, compassion, anguish. I can't think of any other position other than a poverty stricken prostitute on the side of the street, who is doing the same thing as the begger but also allowing an invasion on their personal most secret places, where the beggar still attempts 2 protect that part of themself from the public at large.

Most people, with both having either pretty decent paying jobs and terribly paid low-wage full time jobs, probably would not be a begger for just one month even if someone offered them 100, 000,.00 to live and act as one. Most would say something like, "no one could ever pay me enough to do that, I'd rather die first." Now what just took place was a job offer that was declined. On the other hand, say it was accepted by a person who is not a people person, on the shy and quiet side, who feels anxious around people but still capable of appearing to function normally. And let's say this person was employed already in a terrible job, working full time, with a "switch off" notice from the Utility Company hanging over their head and an eviction notice from their landlord coming in a week if they don't receive payment by then, along with their only car suddenly just breaking on them, and they need a new transmission put in it ASAP, with that car being the vehicle that takes them to work, which is two large towns over from where they live. No easy bus route available. How hard do you think this person just described here will work dealing with all their mental insecurities? Very hard. While the physical action is minimal in the action of begging itself, the mental action is different, and what is not seen. Someone sitting there studying at a library in college, eyes glued to some book, looking peaceful and at ease from a distance, could actually be mentally focused trying to grasp a complicated concept and formula, lifting mental weights as they try to grasp it. Again. And again. THAT is what makes it hard. The wrestling with the mind to endure something and process it, that it is not naturally compatible with, makes it hard. We hear many say, "I studied so hard because what I had to learn was very complicated" and for the most part we'll agree with them. Now take that, and place that concept on this quiet and shy person who has a job, but it pays the minimal wage leaving them desperate to survive even with having legally recognized work AND working full time, and think of how complicated it will be to them, 2 their brain, mentally battling they need the money and it's a lot of money, against their pride and fear. To which their mind, has to learn how to act. To which that encompasses acting. Which that leads me to the next type of person, who takes the job offer to live as a begger for a month for 100, 000.00, who already has a job as an Actor that pays well, so this money will be used to buy some expensive 'toys' for them. A boat, jewlery and an exotic vacation somewhere in Asia. In addition, they are excited because this is a real time role, with the people around not knowing they are an actor, and they get to see the people's reaction and can't wait for it. Any reaction in the negative or positive by the people that see them is hungrily looked forward to and absorbed. They've always been this way. When they went into acting there was nothing that was learned that was hard. There was no deep mental process they had to over come. Being a begger wasn't a job to the actor bc it was that easy. Instead, it was viewed as an experience they were being financially rewarded for, but they are not planning on telling the one offering the money to be a begger for a month, what a piece of cake it will be because the actor senses this new employer wouldn't want to make a deal with a professional actor because the job listing didn't specifically advertise for one, nor was it touched on during the interview and when asked about their current employment, they just simply said part-time college student, who sells second hand items on eBay and lives with their lover, to which none of those were lies, just witholding information - implementing 'don't ask, don't tell" - which is actually an accepted & widely practiced policy in the business world.

Now we have 2 distinct personalities & scenarios that can be transferred to the common belief of what a begger is to most people, who don't see the personality. They don't know the history. They assume. They are THE begger in a humanoid shape and that is all. They are prematurely judged. Could be judged as the "loser" or "druggie" beggar, as in their minds, they all are, based on one encounter with one, or here's the best one, someone else's encounter with one bc they never actually talked to one. They can't stand even looking at them saying to one another "those damn pathetic good for nothing loser druggies get what they deserve, those lazy scumbag freeloading drunks."

Bottom line is no one knows how hard it is for someone to beg. And just because begging is easy for some beggers, er people, (see how that happens?) , also means begging is hard for some people. This also means that begging being hard on a person at one time, became easy after months of repetition and exposure. And it also means that some still find it hard but the reward of not having anyone dictate how they spend that money they earned through the mentally traumatizing job of begging, has become worth it 2 them.

Is it work only when we suffer? Are people afraid to tell people their high paying job is easy so they think they r working hard?

Waiting outside in the car while somebody went for beer....I spied a really effed up dude looking beat up and pretty much down on his luck, slouched up against the beer store side wall.....
I mean he looked near done sitting there and I jumped out and went over and handed him a fiver....
No sooner than I got back behind the wheel, and his "handler" strode up and collected the dough from him as he sat
dejectedly there in the cold......
Whereupon I simply threw up my hands and drove off.....
Its a weird world out there and what do fish eat?
Anything that fits in their mouths....

a reply to: N3k9Ni

C: You give the shoemaker $10.00 to polish your shoes and the shoemaker gives $10.00 to the beggar.

Best answer. There is always a solution we didn't see.