Jesus v. Paul : Did 'Saul of Tarsus' Pervert the Original Message of "Jesus" & "James" ?

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Yes I am aware how men will twist the word of God and use it to their advantage . They can do it via many ways and one way is to redact out of the conversation what contradicts the truth .

John 14:6King James Version (KJV)

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

a reply to: the2ofusr1

And the way, the truth, and the life is within the teachings of Jesus: love your neighbor and God.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

You left out the part about the father . Its by connecting to the father through Jesus that we are able to love God first and then our neighbours . They are crucially linked and Jesus is that link .

a reply to: Sigismundus

TextPaul taught that the gift of salvation through Grace occurs apart from any behavioral requirement:

Not completely true. Salvation through Grace is forgiveness. Forgiveness hinges upon repenting and repenting hinges upon behavioral requirements.

a reply to: auto3000

You wrote QUOTE "I don't want you to be in error with the scriptures leaning to your own understanding...this is where you need revelation from God, not trying to "figure out what scriptures mean"....James is referring to measure of faith and Romans is referring to salvation...James: man's measure of faith is justified by works and not faith alone (faith without works is dead)....Romans: man's salvation is justified by faith alone in Christ Jesus and not works...." UNQUOTE

I think there is a larger question here of the different theologies of the two men.

Paul knew almost nothing about the life of Jesus (The four Gospels were not written, and Paul does not mention any events in the life of Jesus, except the Lord’s supper and resurrection. He only met Peter and James, a brother of Jesus. He made no attempt to meet any other apostles during his 15-day visit to Jerusalem in AD 39.

Among the 6 undisputed epistles (Galatians, 1 Corinthians, Romans, Philemon, Philippians & 1 Thessalonians that most scholars believe were written by Paul, Paul fails to mention any events: e.g.

Miracles
Parables
Birth, Mary and Joseph ('born of woman' does not oount)
The Lord's Prayer
The Transfiguration
The Sermon on the Mount
See of Galilee
Temple visit, Nazareth
Pontius Pilate
Judas Iscariot’s betrayal
Gethsemane
Son of Man

Graham Stanton (Professor of New Testament Studies in the University of London), in his book 'Gospel Truth', says that Paul's failure to refer more frequently to the actions and teaching of Jesus is 'baffling.'

Why did Paul not mention these 'events' that are narrated in the 4 canonical Greek Gospels?

a reply to: Sigismundus

Although some of the churches Paul help to establish had some Jews the majority were of a Gentile nature .Most of the items on your list were in the Gospels and Paul was not a witness to them other then what he had heard . Some of the issues that Paul mentions that can link to them like bringing someone back from the dead he experienced first hand .Pauls writings are considered letters as well . some to individuals and some to whole assemblies . The Gospels except for Luke don't give a recipient . The Book of Revelation stands out in all the Books and does not address much of issues you mention . There is such a variety of writings and stiles that as a collection it makes it possible to shine a much bigger light . Imagine if all the books were written the same as the Gospels .Or if they all said the same thing and just focused from one point . Its the diversity of the New Testament that makes it so rich and has lots for a student to chew on when we also have the old testament too .

eta

He only met Peter and James, a brother of Jesus. He made no attempt to meet any other apostles during his 15-day visit to Jerusalem in AD 39.

and your evidence for saying this is only that it was not mentioned . It is believed from other books in the new testament that Mary was in Ephesus ,so Paul may have met her there . We cant say who Paul may or may not have met in Jerusalem other then what was recorded but there is probably things that were not .
He had to meet the two that was sent to Antioch from Jerusalem .. just saying

a reply to: the2ofusr1

You wrote QUOTE Although some of the churches Paul help to establish had some Jews the majority were of a Gentile nature. Most of the items on your list were in the Gospels and Paul was not a witness to them other then what he had heard..." UNQUOTE

The third canonical Greek Gospel ('according to Luke', whoever he was) is the first part of a two-part account (the 2nd part is the 'Book of Acts') and lists no less than 3 versions of the conversion of Saul of Tarsus

And none of the three agree on the details...

Version One:
Acts 9:3-17: "…[Saul] was approaching Damascus, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, `Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?'…The men who were traveling with him stood speechless because they heard the voice but saw no one. Saul got up from the ground, and though his eyes were open, he could see nothing; so they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. For three days he was without sight, and neither ate nor drank.…there was a…disciple at Damascus named Ananias…laid his hands on Saul and said, `Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on your way here, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit."

Version Two:
Acts 22:6-21: "While I was…approaching Damascus…a great light from heaven suddenly shone about me. I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying…Saul,Saul, why are you persecuting me?...those who were with me saw the light but did not hear the voice…I could not see because of the brightness of the light…those with me…led me to Damascus…Ananias, who was a devout man according to the law and well spoken of by all the Jews living there…said…get up, be baptized, and have your sins washed away, calling on his name."

Version Three:
Acts 26:12-18: "…I was traveling to Damascus…I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and my companions. When we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew language, `Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It hurts you to kick against the goads…the Lord answered, `I am Jesus whom you are persecuting…get up and stand on your feet…"

Which Version is the reader to believe? Saul alone fell to the ground; those with him stood speechless because they heard the voice but saw no one; Saul was without sight for three days; Ananias was a disciple who laid hands on Saul to restore his sight and fill him with the Holy Spirit.

Or
Saul alone fell to the ground; Those with him saw the light but did not hear the voice; No mention of three days without sight or food; Ananias was "a devout man according to the Law and liked by the Jews."

Or
Everyone fell to the ground; the voice spoke in the Hebrew Language; no blindness, no Ananias, no baptism, no restoration of sight, no “filled by Holy Spirit”

This is the kind of thing that makes it difficult to separate fact from fantasy in the earliest Christian traditions....

a reply to: LittleByLittle

"Did Paul pervert the Message of Jesus?" You wrote QUOTE "Yes. Paul is a false prophet from my point of view where Yeshua taught how to become anointed. But some people love free ride faith and not having to pickup the cross and that is why Paul:s Jesus name worship is so popular..."

Interestingly perhaps is the fact that others in the church Heirarchy were wary of his message and called him a 'liar' - see what he writes in his own defence

Romans 9:1: "I am speaking truth in Christ, I am not lying..."

2 Corinthians 11:31: "The God and Father of the Lord Jesus…knows that I do not lie."

Galations 1:19-20: "But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord's brother. (In what I am writing to you, befor God, I do not lie!)"

1 Timothy 2:7: "For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth."

Why the emphatic protests if he had not been accused of lying?

Paul argued that his gospel was the authentic "gospel of Christ" and that "another gospel" (that of James, Peter, and John) was false. His letter to the Galatians contains his argument supporting "Justification/salvation by faith, not by works."

Galatians 1:6-7: "I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel – not that there is another gospel, but there are some who are confusing you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ."

Galatians 1:8-9: "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed…if he is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed."

Methinks the lady doth protest a little too much....

a reply to: Sigismundus

There's a difference in saying Faith without works and saying no works at all...Faith alone is what brings about justification....faith also is what leads you to works...

The message is that you are not saved by your works...doing good does not lead to a clean heart....you clean the cup from the inside first....meaning faith....then you can clean the outside...meaning works....You can't have one without the other....and that's the message...if there's any part of it that's not clear...try reading it ALL in context...and not just cutting out verses here and there...

Hint: Paul taught repentance, or turning away from sin(behavioral modification) just like everyone else. See Acts 17:30 or his farewell message to Ephesus in Acts 20 for examples.

A2D

a reply to: Sigismundus

#1 -- 666 written in Hebrew becomes ת''רסו
#2 -- 616 written in Hebrew becomes ת''ריו

Read as transliterated Greek words:
#1 becomes Tarsou, which is Greek for «of/from Tarsus»
==> From Tarsus, like Saulus
#2 becomes Theriou, which is Greek for «of the Beast»
==> Prophet working on behalf of Rome, like Saulus

My theory is that Saulus was the nemesis of John of Patmos and that John coded Saulus into his Apocalypse. Saulus is probably the intended Beast or rather the False Prophet working as some kind of counter terrorist operative, infiltrating the early Christians and making sure they comply with Rome, «or else...»

Acts 9:11 “...at the house of Judas look for a man of Tarsus named Saul...”

Man of Tarsus -- Man + 666

a reply to: Sigismundus

This short clip is from a short look at the issue ...

Note that Paul says that God revealed his Son "in me," not "to me" (although some translations do incorrectly give this as "to me"). The significance of this is that for Paul, the revelation was internal, not an external vision or appearance. Note also that he did not immediately tell anyone about his conversion, instead travelling to Arabia, perhaps to meet King Aretas who also ruled Damascus at this time, and only then going to Damascus.

Summary
The differences among the three accounts in Acts of the Apostles do not show that Paul was confused, but that the author of Acts was exercising some literary licence. The differences between Acts 9:3-8 and Paul's own story of his conversion and his subsequent itinerary appear to show that Acts 9:3-8 was also a literary creation in Acts, entirely unknown to the apostle Paul.

hermeneutics.stackexchange.com...

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Instead of plucking a very small portion of acts 9...it's probably better you post the whole thing, or atleast the whole of the encounter you mention...

10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. 11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus : for, behold, he prayeth, 12 and hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight. 13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: 14 and here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name. 15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 16 for I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name’s sake.

Red your emphasis...blue is mine......

If he were an antichrist...he sure did it wrong.

A2D

Jesus stole his entire "love one another" philosophy from John the Baptist, anyway, and then had him bumped off so he could take over his fairly large following.

a reply to: Blue Shift

and the evidence for this is....where exactly?

A2D

a reply to: the2ofusr1
Paul contends he never met with apostles except Peter and James. Paul also claims apostles had nothing to offer him. His Jesus of revelation was greater than their Jesus of personal experience. Book of 'Acts was written 30 + years after Paul's death and is pure church propaganda, zero historical value.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Jesus sacrifice was on Pesach, not Yom Kippur. He fulfilled overcoming of death not sin. Haman's law in Esther when the King is tricked into condemning all Jews occurs the same date as last supper when Judas agrees to betray Jesus.
Jewish messiah will return during Purim and fulfill gospel according of Esther when Israel's enemies will be destroyed. All advents of christ are jewish holidays fulfilled. Rabbi Jesus came to restore, Paul came to overthrow. Jesus said to woman at well, "salvation is of the Jews" Paul rejects the Jews and the Torah. Jews only rejected Paul's Jesus (son of a god born of a virgin on December 25th the formula of every major pagan religion in Roman empire during 1st century.
Paul would not be caught dead talking to the slut in Samaria because Paul hated and distrusted women.
Paul fulfills Duet 32 and is like Pharaoh who makes Joseph into a deity his brothers cannot recognize.
Paul is Korah and Paul is Jeroboam. Paul is Benjamin as spoken by Jacob, A ravenous wolf, in the evening he rises up and divides the spoil. Nowhere in scripture can I find Paul's authority to set aside Torah. Please reveal this mystery to me.

Paul is simply a stumbling block on the path that Jesus lay down to follow... the same way Jesus is now a stumbling block to the path. Like using a map from an outdated GPS map that says turn here and nothings there or weee now driving through uncharted territory when you're clearly in a new 4 lane highway.

Belief is faith in the map itself not Jesus he is the GPS; is either the map or GPS? No they both are representations of how to get to the destination... but once at the destination you still have a vehicle and you still don't really live there. So so many people have set up a dwelling on faith alone. Trust the map and drive off the cliff when it says turn left? No way, map must be wrong... not the GPS's fault.

Once arrived you can use the GPS to find your way around, but you have doubts and these doubts are good no matter what path as they are your stumbling block to over come with intuition and not blind faith while someone you may or may not trust holds your hand or heart... driving you around in their vehicle like Paul instead of you... once you're at Jesus' house you'll realize it still isn't home despite all of this... and well you've upgraded your GPS map while crashing on his couch, eaten him out of house and home, answer his phone telling people all about his business while he wasn't ever there.

This is Christianity today... faith is a cross to bear after you've hung out on it long enough whining the world isn't heaven to god then you're carcass is hauled down and tossed into the heap... very few people rise again and find their way back home.

Here's some better wine with no sour grapes

a reply to: GBP/JPY
"Paul plowed deeper"? OK, Paul spent how many years in prison plowing deeper? How many writers did their greatest works from prison? Roman's Corinthians, and Galatians where written when Paul was young, Paul was mature in Prison. So what explanation do you offer for Paul not producing a single thesis of faith.

According to Acts Paul is already a different man before Agrippa after just two years of prison. He lets us in on important info the Lord told him at Damascus road, that little detail about his tendency to kick against the goads. Just like his namesake King Saul who G-d replaces with "a man after my own heart"

David was not a better man than Saul but David always remained correctable, he did not kick against goads.

a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness
Abram Joseph and Moses did not poses scripture or GPS yet they followed G-d
Consider your heart to be your compass and consider idols to be magnets. When magnets are brought near to a compass it can no longer read North.

GPS was a man made system to overcome human error during artillery barrages. Friendly fire kills more soldiers than the enemy during many of historic battles. GPS is very technical and therefore very prone to failure. If you enter the wilderness and get lost, any part of that GPS system that fails can cost you your life.

G-d never changed and when you read Bible histories you might just note man has not changed either. We've just grown more technical. We change our environment to meet our comforts. Sudden break down in that system will lead to massive death toll in 1st world countries because we've lost our survival skills.

a reply to: thegimprider

they just recognized the path, and walked it lived it ate it and breathed it as any enlightened being does if they were... i cannot say and it is not my place to judge either way, as they are long dead and their energy has moved on. Idols? What is an idol? you mean an object or a person? Object... thats materiality. Person that's someone else or one's own ego... are any of these truly oneself as the embodiment of the eternal? yes and no, the yes and no... is the path beyond yes and no it neither is or isn't. Is it not written as a direct quote from god... I am what I am? That's zero that's undefined... define experience and where then is god found?